Now this is defederation I can get behind.
this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2023
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I won't claim to defend Meta, but wouldn't at least give them the benefit of the doubt until there's details of the project a saner approach? We literally know nothing about it except it's in the works.
Give Meta an inch they’ll take a mile. No quarter. No wait and see. No half measures. We don’t literally know nothing; we know Meta is involved. That’s enough for me to say no.
They’ll follow the Microsoft route, pretending to be for open standards, then extending the standard for only their apps and sites, and with sheer numbers and money they’ll grab a bunch of users who will come to expect the features and implementations they provide and then bam. No more fediverse.
Not. One. Inch.
Well yeah, but there isn't any indication that they're modifying the standard at all. ActivityPub is still it's own thing that they will be presumably tapping into, what I get from the current info is they are just creating a kbin/Mastodon competitor which should be its own thing entirely.
there isn't any indication that they're modifying the standard
There is an indication they are Meta.
Any other info is superfluous. Their being Meta is an adequate reason to preemptively shun them.
I understand and share the negative sentiment towards them, but again, what it looks like they're working on is a product that will connect to the Fediverse, it will not modify the ActivityPub protocol which is used for the open communication. From what I understand, any shenanigans they try to run would be limited to their instance, while we benefit from the added content they could provide.
I'm not saying let's welcome them with open arms, I'm just saying it would be good to wait until we know anything about the product before we rush any decision, in the name of growing the Fediverse.
in the name of growing the Fediverse.
Perhaps then we should all federate with Gab and Truth and whatever instance DeSantis ends up spinning up to organize his brownshirts?
...in the name of growing the Fediverse, of course.
If—as I believe you do—you disagree with that proposition, then perhaps you hold there are certain standards of behavior which once seen do not necessitate further waiting. I would question if that is indeed the case why you seemingly do not believe Meta has already crossed that line.
I understand your desire for "success", "acceptance". "More potential friends" on our these frothy FOSSy seas. I do. I get that.
You are not wrong to want more people to join up.
Letting in Meta is not how you do that.
If you had a house party, and you wanted it "more bumpin' " you might think the obvious answer is "More people = good so let in anyone who's willing to attend."
It is not.
Certain people—and specifically I'm thinking of Artie the Arsonist—need to be prevented from attending.
Not only should Artie and his shloshing gas can (which in fairness he has promised not to use) be turned away at the door, some of your trusted friends with guns should be stationed at either end of the street keeping Artie from coming anywhere near your party.
There should be a big giant, "ARTIES NOT ALLOWED" banner reassuring your guests (and future potential guests) that in addition to sweet tunes and chips, another reason to attend this party specifically is that they won't be burned as they have been so many times by Artie and his friends.
Meta wanting in is not a sign of FOSS success.
We do not gain anything as the "not twitter"s, "not facebook"s of the world by allowing ourselves to be co-opted back into the sinking systems we escaped.
This is an attack, and the very idea of waiting and seeing by itself is damaging to FOSS—the main selling point of which thus far has been an Artie-absent space. Even considering letting him get close enough to sniff because "...maybe he won't reek of gas" is offputting to many and damages the most valuable asset the fediverse has: having nothing to do with Those Fuckos Over There.
Assent of what FOSS is doing by the brokers/shakers it was designed in opposition to cannot change FOSS's value because THEY do not determine that.
The people who would sell your eyeballs out your skull and plant He Gets Us chips into your brain need you. You do not need them.
What I'm saying is...
Heghlu'meh QaQ dajaj!
Qapla'!
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They could well try to pull the classic "embrace, extend, extinguish" move. Appear to embrace an open standard, then start writing proprietary extensions for it, and then use their clout to get everyone to stay on their network and abandon the open source version (because everyone's on Meta's network)
They don't have to modify Activity Pub directly to cause chaos. The likely order of events that everyone is worried about it the 3E's.
From wikipedia's entry:
- Embrace: Development of software substantially compatible with a competing product, or implementing a public standard.
- Extend: Addition and promotion of features not supported by the competing product or part of the standard, creating interoperability problems for customers who try to use the "simple" standard.
- Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors that do not or cannot support the new extensions.
Give meta the benefit of the doubt? Are you joking? We literally know exactly how awful they are in every area they touch.
Exactly, I'm sorry Mr Jabroni, but I gotta agree here. They have burned every ounce of goodwill long ago. Don't give them an inch.
I know they're the worst of capitalism and break any law or agreement they can possibly get away with and many they cannot, but shouldn't we at least give them a chance
Fucking rubes.
I avoid their services like the plague, but not everything Facebook does is inherently evil. For instance, they did zstd, React, and Ent (I'm not a dev, so I may be wrong about the last two being good, but React at least seems to be very popular). They're also in the top 10 of employers contributing to the Linux kernel from 5.16 to 6.1.
No. Meta is a known bad actor. They have a history of not being good for protocols and communities. They are already guilty. Just not here yet. Preemptive banning is appropriate. There is no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
After they roll out their project, then it can be assessed to see how much harm, if any, it will bring. At that point let them in or not, as evidence dictates. It is entirely possible that they will be a good fedi citizen, if the reason for doing this isn't profit. And that is actually possible in this case. Because having some services that use Activity Pub is a way to get get certain regulators off their backs. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it is possible.
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I have the feeling they're planning to embrace, expand and extinguish. I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt after all they've done for years.
@Mr_Jabroni
Considering the well-known privacy violations and surveillance practices of Meta/Facebook, it's not hard to imagine that one of their future actions, possibly sooner rather than later, would involve cross-referencing accounts in the fediverse with their own platforms like Facebook, Whatsapp, Instagram, and others. In Mastodon, users have the option to block instances, ensuring that those instances cannot access their data. However, we don't even have that level of protection here.
@LollerCorleone
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The last thing I personally want is reintroducing Silicon Valley cancer back into the Fediverse. Let's keep them away. No ads, no algos, no bullshit.
I want tech companies to do technical foundations job and not to do advertisement job
Broadly, I have no issue with this.
In the first place, it's just a part of the nature of the fediverse that admins are free to manage their instances as they prefer and users are free to choose instances as they prefer, so it's no more significant in that sense than a restaurant not including some particular thing on its menu. It's their choice, and I'm entirely free to order something else or go to a different restaurant.
Specifically, to the degree that it matters (which is likely not at all), this is the decision I'd make too, just because even in a culture increasingly defined by corporate shitweasels, Meta stands out for being especially shitweaselish.
All that said, I keep wondering if it's going to be an issue anyway. The fediverse is a sort of technically and conceptually complex place, and uncharitably, Meta's customer base leans toward the lazy and stupid end of the spectrum.
I can definitely see some likelihood that a lot (most?) of the people who might end up following a link to a Meta-owned instance are just going to get confused and frustrated, then scurry back to Facebook.
We'll see...
I just want to commend you for the term shitweaselish. It was needed and I thank you for providing it. :-)
I'll play devil's advocate here -- I hate Meta, but Meta apps supporting activitypub would be a huge benefit for adding users to the platform.
Like other small social platforms, the fediverse has a fundamental choice to make between quantity and quality. The quality of Reddit took a nosedive in the last 5-6 years as the platform grew. I'm not saying it was always great in "the old days", but recently all of the big subs were just page after page of the same memes, stupid arguments ("it's called soccer! It's called football!") that have been had a million times, and the same jokes.
So the question is -- how much does the fediverse want to grow? The thing keeping me from deleting my Reddit account right now is some of the sports communities there, and things like a local urbanism group from my hometown.
Having Meta apps support activitypub could help establish that kind of userbase. At the same time, the influx of users could drastically reduce the quality of the platform. It's a balance that has to be struck by the community.
The cool thing about the fediverse compared to other platforms is that the structure allows this kind of thing to be decided fairly democratically -- each instance can "vote" by deciding whether to federate or not, and if we all agree we don't want them, everyone can defederate. If we're 50/50 they'll federate with half of the community.
Having meta into the fediverse is the easy way out. Meta is going to grow like a cancer in the fediverse, enticing weak minded instance owners with a large pool of users to sign a contract to allow meta to implement their ads or their i fluence somehow in order to make their profits.
I dont see why youd want anything like that to take part when its going to be the same bullshit
Meta apps supporting activitypub would be a huge benefit for adding users to the platform.
Just like how Meta apps supporting XMPP was great for XMPP.
Oh wait.
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Fosstodon's official stance on the matter.
Very reasonable and I think sums up my feelings on it as well.
I avoid meta like the plague but making some kind of pre-emptive pact to block it in an open ecosystem seems a lot like a gatekeeping bandwagon; they don't even bother to list an actual reason.
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Not very surprising to see that the popular instances with a good chuck of users have not signed this pact.
I already see where this is ending up.
There are some large and mid-sized instances in the list. The big ones haven't really signed up so far. My bet is that most of them are waiting to see how Meta's platform will actually turn out.
My bet is that most of them are waiting to see how Meta's platform will actually turn out.
Man, the peasants just refuse to learn, don't we? Maybe the wealth class won't fuck everything up and ruin a good thing in the name of short term profit this time! 😑
At least Lucy had to lie to and reassure Charlie Brown to get him to try to kick the football again. It's like people have already forgotten thr reason most of us are here is to escape a greedy asshole breaking our community in his quest to sell us all out to Wall Street.
This Mastodon thread by @lrhodes is a very good read on this subject: https://merveilles.town/@lrhodes/110577852462358211
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Lmao, did I not call this exact event yesterday. I knew all they were gonna get was quarantined. Here's hoping their launch is enough of a failure that they don't try this again. We just got out from under a corporation last week, and you know something like Facebook is going to devour everything it can
I just want to say, look at Google.
Google came into the browser scene with a far better track record for the common good and better intentions than meta.
Something like 96% of browsers are now downstream from Google's code. Recently, Firefox got a lot of flak from companies for having a "pop-out" that let's you do PIP with any video. The standard (guess who it's written by) makes the feature optional, but there's a "disable PIP" flag part of it that Firefox chose to ignore.
Suddenly, I need a plugin to spoof the user-agent, because sites are blocking Firefox. Even with that, things like Google maps have stopped working completely in Firefox. I'm ride or die on this issue so I'm not switching, but my family members I convinced to switch have abandoned ff.
The fediverse should be able to handle corporate involvement - but we said the same about the web. I'm not eager to test it.
If they get any fraction of the market, they'll dictate extensions to the standard, then split us as groups are split between good suggestions, and those realizing we're losing control. Meta will try to take over and monetize the network - that's what a corporation is. Even if right now every single person there is doing it for the right reason, sooner rather than later it will start looking for where the money is
The fediverse is way too young and vulnerable right now... There's going to be efforts to kill or control it, there's no need to invite them in
I agree with your point but I am curious about the sites blocking Firefox part. I have been only using Firefox now for many years and apart from one or two poorly built government websites, have never run into a site that didn't work.
I like the sound of this, Meta is a cancer on the Internet.
And if it shows up here, it could Meta-stasize.
...I'll show myself out.
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