Aotearoa Daily Kōrero 18/10/2023 : newzealand

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 9 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Thought for the day.

How easy is it for you to accept new information; when it contradicts an existing belief or view?

e.g. from the book I am reading: it is not possible to exercise ourselves to weight loss; the body essentially has a fairly consistent energy use, weather sitting at a desk or going for a run. This is both interesting and counter intuitive, physical exertion seems like it should use more energy than sitting around. The book goes on to explain the both the mechanism for this and the push by various companies to equate exercise with weight loss. Exercise does a huge range of good things for us, but losing weight is not one of them.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago

I can accept new information but if it goes against my current belief it needs to back itself up pretty well with multiple sources. In this case it does not sound correct or it sounds like they're trying to refine the situation so that they can say a complicated version of calories in vs calories out and act like its something new.

[–] luthis@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would like to add some more detail to this. Its not actually the exercise that causes weight loss, its the panting and breathing that causes weight loss. You literally breathe out the weight as carbon dioxide.

The most effective way to do this, is Sprint Interval Training.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

From the book'

This is especially true when we look at longer timeframes of several days or weeks. In the case of the Hadza(tribe in Tanzania), when they rest, they really rest. And it’s true for athletes and everyone else who is active too. We can be very active for a period of time, but we claw back that energy debt later. It’s this reduction of energy usage in other ways inside the body that may explain why exercise is associated with improved physical health, even if it doesn’t lead to weight loss.
Pontzer’s model posits that going for a long walk or run results in simply scaling back on routine non-essential bodily processes, reducing the amount of energy spent on your immune, endocrine, reproductive and stress systems. That may sound bad, but a bit of downtime actually seems to help to restore those systems to a healthier level of function. And it makes sense evolutionar-ily: throughout hominid history, there will have been significant periods during which food was scarce. Under the conventional model of calorie burning, that would mean using the most calories when food was least available because you would inevitably work harder to hunt or gather those calories. The fixed energy model means that energy use is consistent even if we do have to walk further to get food. And in a time of scarcity, it makes sense to borrow from – for example – the reproductive system to reduce fertility.
According to Ponzter’s data, we burn around 2,500 calories per day at desk jobs, the same number of calories as if we were walking a long distance. Since we’re not spending that energy on walking, we spend it elsewhere, on things like being stressed. The hypothesis says that office workers will likely have increased levels of adrenaline, cortisol and white blood cells, all of which make us anxious and inflamed. 53 , 54 A sedentary life (of the kind you probably live if you’re reading this – although not necessarily) leads to higher levels of testosterone and oestrogen, which might sound good to some people, but which can increase risks of cancers. By contrast, the Hadza – who do around two hours of moderate and vigorous physical activity every day, many times more than typical people in the UK and the USA – have morning salivary testosterone concentrations that are roughly half those of western populations. 55This is a good thing, and it may explain why exercise is such an important treatment for many chronic conditions
and seems to reduce depression and anxiety. 56

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've read articles about the diet etc of top athletes, they're often consuming 7,000 calories at the peak of their training regime, and clearly not getting fat.

The idea that a sedentary office worker is burning as much energy as an athlete is just nonsense.

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[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s pretty well known in fitness circles that you should be using TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) to lose weight. Simply put it’s calories in vs. calories out. Doesn’t really matter if you exercise or not. If calories going in is less than what you use daily, then weight loss should happen.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What if the TDEE is not really a useful measure?

What if your body is working against you in that particular regard?

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In what way? What do you mean body working against you?

It's never going to be exact, but unless your a top 1% athelete who's getting lab work done regularly, it doesn't need to be.

As long as you're generally lower on intake than what you burn , weight loss should occur, barring illnesses or similar. There will also always be outliers who burn more or less at rest.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Think of it like this.

Your body has two energy users, the autonomic stuff that you have no control over (immune system, endocrine system, reproductive system etc..) and the conscious stuff that you do have control over, walking / running / working etc..

Your body will dial back the autonomic functions to allow you to increase the conscious energy load, this is to stay inside your energy budget.

The parts of you that you have no control over are working against you in subtle ways that you cannot know. I realize that the energy in vs energy out argument is good, because in the long run it works out, but on a daily basis it doesn't. It would work much better if you changed daily to monthly or quarterly.

Total Monthly Energy Expenditure vs Monthly Calorific Intake. Or more succinctly your personal Monthly Energy Balance.

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The parts of you that you have no control over are working against you in subtle ways that you cannot know.

I don't know man, you're getting into some woo woo broscience with talk like that.

Yes illnesses, lack of sleep, thyroid issues etc. can affect weight loss. There is enough data out there to show how weight loss works. It doesn't need to be an exact calorie number you hit each day. It's about generally keeping better habits and being mindful of your nutrition. Some days you go over, some days are under. Some days you exercise more and some days less.

I'm actually not sure what the point you're making is in regard to weight loss. As you say it all works out in the long run anyway.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The conversation went away from my original question about new information that conflicts with existing views, but that is the nature of conversation, you go where it leads.

But the book is more about the way ultra-processed foods mess with out reward systems to encourage over-eating and that exercise is not a way to balance out excess consumption. As your body simply thinks it needs more food, even though you have blown your food budget for the day; the increased exercise doesn't burn nearly as much as you would expect given the level of work you think you are doing, then eating a little more blows the budget even further.

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

I agree with that in the sense that most people when getting in to fitness start to realise how much you have to exercise to burn off excess consumption. And that it's already known that ultraprocessed food is usually very calorie dense but can be nutritionally empty. I'm sure most who get into it seriously are aware dietary habits also need to change.

In running circles there's a saying "you can't outrun a bad diet". There's also "Abs are made in the kitchen".

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[–] Ilovethebomb@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In that particular instance, I'd say it's absolute bullshit, because it contradicts everything we know about exercise and energy expenditure.

As an example, have a look at what a top athlete eats when they're training, they're often eating more than twice the amount a regular person will.

How would you explain this?

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

To not answer the question you posited, and instead look a the assumptions in your statement. The book goes into the specifics.

because it contradicts everything we know about exercise and energy expenditure

There are examples sited, to scientific articles in highly respected journals that show this effect. I also know of plenty of people who go to the gym and yet are not loosing weight, anecdotal I know, which point to the fact that exercise does great things for the body but burning fat isn't one of them.

Over the long term energy in vs energy out will cause weight loss, however the short and long term act in vastly different ways.

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's quite hard if the existing information is there for solid reasons, but once I have, it's an amazing feeling and I love it.

Firstly, learning something truly new to me just feels really pleasurable. Not sure why.

Secondly, realising my current belief is wrong may feel disconcerting, so if there's other better information to replace it with, being able to grasp the new info and be right again is reassuring.

With your weight loss example learning that was a relief, I'm in a situation where I had to lose weight without exercise or fasting, so I read around that quite a bit. As the old saying goes, "you can't outrun your fork" ( this article is quite useful).

But the counter-intuitive part for me was that all calories are not created equal. That was harder for me to get my head around because it goes against conventional wisdom, and I had to deep dive into liver function. I was very suspicious and had to look at multiple convincing sources before the "calories in = calories out is all there is to it" could be dislodged.

Another example would be arsenic in rice. I eat rice all the time and I so wanted it to either be a myth of be something I didn't need to care about. But facts are facts, if you want to be right, not knowing you're wrong doesn't make it so.

Knowing the truth made the next step possible, finding a scientific paper on better cooking methods to remove arsenic from rice. So now it's all good.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you can grab a copy of the book I'm reading.

"Ultra Processed People, the science of food that isn't food".

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes I'm beginning to want to read it.

I eventually lost over 20 kg without exercise or fasting (or surgery obviously) by the way. So I believe in it from an experience point of view as well.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well done; your achievement must be so satisfying.

As someone who has never struggled with this burden; I realize that it must be very difficult for those that do. The social aspects of being heavy are also addressed in the book, a lot of blaming the person when there are so many factors at play.

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nah it was honestly just a relief. I'd never been overweight before in my life, and suddenly went through a 50% increase in body weight over about 11 months and it was terrifying.

As well as barely recognising yourself (doesn't help that you can't fit any of your own clothes) and getting the sudden social stigma and blame of being fat, there's also a host of health risks.

So I was super motivated to learn about it.

Took me years to get back down below the "obese" threshold because of the methods available to me, and it was such a relief to have all those risk percentages going down again.

It's crazy to me how mean people are to obese people. Surely no one wants to be at risk for strokes and heart disease and diabetes. There have got to be factors at play, like you say.

[–] KhanumBallZ@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago

I think the problem is moreso the fact that modern food is so energy-dense.

But exercise makes a big difference between [being morbidly overweight] vs. just having a tummy - for people who otherwise have a problematic relationship with food.

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 9 points 1 year ago

Trying to get into a bit of boxing again and attended a session yesterday. Pretty sore and weak today... Feels good :)

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I want the new neighbour to be at home when I'm awake, so we can give them the baking we made them as a welcome. So far we have had to eat the first batch and bake them another!

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The struggle is real

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

Heh heh. If this keeps up though we'll have to give them random flowers from the garden instead.

[–] sortofblue@lemmy.nz 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think I've found part of tonight's dinner in the 1974 edition of the New Zealand Women's Weekly Cookbook. I love old cookbooks, they use fairly plain, easy-to-source ingredients and took clogging arteries as a personal challenge. That said, I'm only going to use half the cheese for this experiment. Probably.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I like old recipes also; generally cut the sugar though (especially American origin ones) as I think people used to have a sweeter tooth...or the cynic in me says the books were sponsored by sugar companies.

[–] sortofblue@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

I tend to stick to savoury rather than sweet so it's more about figuring out how much dripping or lard to leave out. The amount of alcohol stuffed into 'dessert' is quite amusing though

[–] KhanumBallZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Another slow day. Still waiting for big deliveries...

I'm slowly coming to the realization that talking about one's problems is mostly a waste of time. The best way to live life is to be actively engaged in doing everything in your power to fix the immediate world around you.

Failing that - one should accept things the way they are, and move on. Because a lot of the times, life says: "No". And there's no guarantee that one's efforts will change the outcome of the situation. Likewise, the only real way to deal with pent-up emotions is to match their intensity through physical activity.

[–] sortofblue@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think you're right - but if a problem is festering then talking through it can be helpful. I'm not very good at articulating out loud so I end up dumping it out in a journal, where it probably makes even less sense but it's out of my head and I can draw a line under it and move on more easily. I like the idea of being more actively engaged though.

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you are the the type of person to ruminate on an issue; then talking it through with someone can be very helpful to give you a perspective outside your own head.

If you are not the rumination type; then talking it out may be of less use (but still not useless).

Physical activity; has been shown in multiple studies to help with emotional regulation. I'm sure that there are people who respond much better to physical activity for mental health.

[–] sortofblue@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

Physical activity; has been shown in multiple studies to help with emotional regulation. I’m sure that there are people who respond much better to physical activity for mental health.

Yeah, there's definitely a reason this has been floating around Tumblr for years:

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I suddenly got to thinking about getting a Kindle.

Any feedback from people that have / had one? How did you like it? What's the pricing generally like for e-books? Did it actually get you to read more? (I find a big barrier for me is actually finding the time to go to a book store and looking around and buying one physically). Was it not as good as reading a physical book?

Keen to hear some thoughts from people in the know :)

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've got a Kobo Clara. I started reading more when I got an e-reader. Backlit + being light and being able to read pretty much anywhere is perfect for me. You can adjust font size, lighting etc.

I prefer it to reading physical books. Can read in bed without lights on. Also if you drop it on your face, it's pretty light. Can't say the same for a 600 page paperback. No fatigue trying to hold pages open without ruining books. Can literally carry 1000 books with you on a trip, not needing to lug around actual books that take up space.

I can't speak to pricing, as it's pretty trivial to find ebooks online :)

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Another user just recommended a Kobo, and so was looking at the Clara 2e. Good to see some positive feedback on it. Generally, hows the Battery Life and User Experience (Laggy/responsive etc)? - Have literally no idea what to expect haha.

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mine is the older Clara HD so not as new as the 2E. It's about normal responsiveness for E-ink screen I found. The only type I had used before hand is an 2nd Gen Kindle.

I use KOReader instead of the default Nickel. Battery life is good, seems to go a bit faster than when I got it a few years ago now. But still more than enough for me. I usually keep wifi off and backlight is on low when I need it.

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh can you use different (for a lack of knowledge) "Apps" as your reader within the device?

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't actually know if there are any others. KOreader offered more customisability at the time over the default and the ability to use OPDS catalog over wifi so I could connect to Calibre which I use to manage my ebooks.

I'm not sure if it's changed but there was no default way to get my own downloaded books over wifi when I got it. I didn't want to connect to the PC everytime

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

Nice. Will keep that in mind if I end up pulling the trigger

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have a kindle! I love them. In some ways it's not as nice as a physical book but they are not as heavy, you can read them in the dark, and they have searchable text.

Plus instant gratification when I tell someone who has a kindle about a book they can often get it right away.

Mine got given to me second hand (it's from 2012) and I only ever side load free books on it (I use Calibre software which is fantastic and does everything). From what I can see the newer ones are more annoying in terms of ads and integration with Amazon so if I were in a position to get a new one I'd probably choose a kobo.

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hmm just did some reading into Kobo, they look pretty good!

[–] liv@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah I've seen them, they look really nice. Some of them have a warm colour light option that's very appealing.

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Yeah leaning towards a Kobo if we end up getting one. Though my partner wants to read some Korean Titles, and it seems like there's no real solution at the moment to remove the DRM for the ebooks you get from the korean ebook stores.

[–] sortofblue@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Calibre?

I have a Kobo and love it, although I've just cancelled my subscription for a few months. It's nice to be able to read what you want without people seeing what the front cover is ;-)

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago

Calibre is the best software I have found for managing an ebook collection where you want multiple types of files. i.e. ePub for kobos etc and mobi for kindle, pdf.

Calibre allows you to convert between the formats pretty easily.

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[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have a Kobo and a Boox. Kobo is light and great; the boox for note taking and lager PDF etc...

Physical books are great; but cumbersome.

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Huh, Boox seems like an interesting proposition as well. Do you find yourself using the notetaking functionality alot in your personal life?

[–] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was using it for journaling for a while; but I got out of the habit.

I make notes regularly and use it for my D&D notes during the campaign. The great thing about it is that it runs Android, so I run Syncthing on it to keep it in sync with my computers and servers.

[–] NoRamyunForYou@lemmy.nz 4 points 1 year ago

Thats actually a really interesting proposition with the Android syncing etc. Will need to do some research / keep that in mind for when I really find a need for it.

Aotearoa / New Zealand