this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2023
12 points (66.7% liked)

Socialism

5189 readers
46 users here now

Rules TBD.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 34 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Communism, like Capitalism, should be highly modified to fit a country's issues. Classical Communism as by Marx and Engels is almost impossible to implement thanks to human nature.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You do realize that capitalism has only existed for a tiny fraction of human existence. The utter lack of critical thinking required to believe that it's human nature is simply astonishing.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Human nature is way too selfish, narcissistic, and greedy for communism and it's other branches to work.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You've got this completely backwards I'm afraid. If humans are indeed selfish, narcissistic, and greedy by nature then it's capitalism and not socialism that's incompatible with humans. We need systems that inhibit negative tendencies and encourage positive ones instead of the opposite. Capitalism is like inviting an alcoholic to a happy hour. We also have plenty of evidence that communism does in fact work, and consistently produces superior results to capitalism.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not meaning to sound like an ass, but can you give examples of Communist countries that have had success in the long run? North Korea and South Korea were neck-to-neck in the 60s and 70s, since the SU's collapse things haven't been well for NK. China and Vietnam ironically had started to adopt market-like policies in the 80s and 90s. Cuba has been in a flux since the Soviet Union fell.

But Humans are selfish to the core, Capitalism has always been flawed without human greed, however Communism and it's derivatives have been suffering because of human nature being selfish and rotten, See Stalinism and Juche

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Cuba, China, and Vietnam are all great examples to study. DPRK is doing well given that it's completely blockaded by the global empire. Meanwhile, US has poured untold billions into propping SK up. Your argument completely ignores the fact that every communist country has to content with the aggression from the most powerful global empire to ever exist. It's not like these countries are allowed to develop peacefully. Soviet Union provided a counterbalance and protected these countries from aggression by the US. Once it dissolved US redoubled its efforts to destroy these countries. If anything, the very fact that they are still around and thriving shows how resilient communism.

Meanwhile, adopting capitalist policies doesn't make a country capitalist any more than adopting some social services makes a country communist. What makes a country communist or capitalist is determined by which class holds power.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I would like to know why you think the U.S is a hostile Empire. I mean you can give our past examples of fierce anti-Communism as proof. But in the modern day, many of these communist nations inflict wounds on themselves via oppressing their own peoples, causing the UN to take action. The U.S would love to work and better relations with the 5 Communist countries of today, however it is them that are the problem, not us.

Juche and Stalinism are proven to be perverted from their missions of Communistic ideals and were made by corrupt people who had zero care for their own population.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I would like to know why you think the U.S is a hostile Empire.

Because of the long and well documented history of atrocities that US has been committing against communist and socialist countries for around a century now. Here are a couple of books you should read if you want to understand the nature of the empire

But in the modern day, many of these communist nations inflict wounds on themselves via oppressing their own peoples, causing the UN to take action.

In the modern day US is blockading Cuba, Venezuela, and DPRK. In fact, US has just recently tried to run a coup in Venezuela. US has also just recently done a coup in Peru against a mildly leftist government. The regime US is backing there is currently murdering people protesting against it.

The U.S would love to work and better relations with the 5 Communist countries of today, however it is them that are the problem, not us.

This statement is not based in reality.

Juche and Stalinism are proven to be perverted from their missions of Communistic ideals and were made by corrupt people who had zero care for their own population.

You have no clue regarding the subject you're attempting to debate. Here are some facts you might want to consider before you regurgitate more nonsense. First, let's take a look at a few studies that clearly show how nonsensical your claims are:

Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.8966&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2672986?seq=1

A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf

This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/

Next, let's just look at how do people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Well... I rest my case against you. But it doesn't change my skepticism and distrust towards Communism. I don't have many sources, but many have said over here that the economic institution is a true nightmare and hundreds are oppressed.

The fact that North Korea prevents its people from leaving, and China imprisoning any who dare to speak their own opinion. Lest we forget what's going on in Venezuela thanks to Communism.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I grew up in USSR, but do tell me more about what life under communism is actually like.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There's just no way you, a person who grew up in a country such as that, can view Communism in such light.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You are a poster child for the power of brainwashing of western propaganda. Go back up in the thread an READ what opinion polls from people who lived in former Soviet countries say. Majority of them preferred communism. Your regime lies to you, and you're too thick to even consider the possibility evidently.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Are you saying that Russia, China and it's communist friends haven't brainwashed you with eastern propaganda? How can someone that was born and lived in the SU have such positive things to say about Communism? Nostalgia has clouded you.

What do you mean I'm too thick?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No, I'm telling you that my lived experience clearly shows which system actually works better. The fact that you think you know better what life was like in SU than somebody who actually lived there really says everything I need to know about you. On top of that, I've linked numerous scientific studies for you showing that it's not just my anecdotal experience.

What do you mean I’m too thick?

Exactly what I said, maybe work on your English comprehension?

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Just because Eastern Europe doesn't know how to utilize capitalism correctly and their politicians lime to treat themselves like emperors and dictators. Doesn't mean that Capitalism is crap. Also nostalgic people like you are the reason tyrants & terrorists like Putin, Xi, Lukashenko, and Orban are in power.

Let's not begin to talk about how many perished under the glorious policies of Communism and the environmental disasters and degradation that occured.... Chernobyl Nuclear Reactor No. 4 ring any bells?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Life in US is getting worse and worse for vast majority of people. A staggering 63% of people in US today have no saving and live paycheck to paycheck. Around 30 million people are food insecure. There are literal tent cities all over the country. Poverty keeps rising while the wealth continues to be concentrated with a handful of oligarchs. That's the reality of capitalism everywhere.

Meanwhile, quality of life in China continues to steadily improve and the government is actively working on doing things like eliminating poverty, creating public infrastructure, providing healthcare, housing, food, and education for all citizens. Chinese government practically eliminated poverty, and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. Social mobility in China is far higher than in US.

Finally, capitalist policies kill millions of people each an every year

You continue to expose yourself here as a profoundly ignorant individual. I can't wait to see what inanity you come up with next here.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You sure you're not talking about life in Russia and Belarus post-1991? You literally explained life outside of St. Petersburg, Volgograd, Moscow, and Kaliningrad. But okay....

I love how you conveniently left out the lives that perished during China's Great Leap Forward and their immediate adoption of liberal market policies as soon as Mao died. But yeah ignorantly explain to me and leave out the facts of the totalitarian policies and extremely poor working conditions of the "zero-poverty" policies.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's absolutely hilarious that you hold strong opinions on the topic regarding which you continue to demonstrate such stunning ignorance. You keep on wallowing in your dogma kiddo.

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You too. It's wild that you're defending the institution that brought misery to a lot of people.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

I'm defending an institution that has improved the lives of more people than any other system ever tried. Only an utter ignoramus such as yourself could argue otherwise while defending one of the most heinous systems known to man. You're like a poster child for the American stereotype.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

highly modified to fit a country’s issues

Not "highly" but Marxism Leninism is the only version which had that build in, hence we have Socialism with Chinese Characterstics or Juche which are still both ML.

Classical Communism as by Marx and Engels is almost impossible to implement thanks to human nature.

You already responded to my main question, like someone who never read anything except Manifesto or probably not even manifesto, else you would know that Marx and Engels never given a ready blueprint for communism, they left that to the people who would implement it, because they weren't dogmatics unlike the bunch of proudhons, lassales etc. and that even during the Marx life his political stance was being refined by revolutionary events - the biggest one would be formulation of the dictatorship of the proletariat doctrine after Paris Commune.

human nature

human nature

human nature

[–] DerPapa69@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Would you mind giving just a quick explanation of what "classical communism" is?

[–] ExcaliburTwoOne@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

Its a term I made up. The one explained in the Communist Manifesto, the true Marxist interpretation, preluding the heavily modified one and more popular Marxist-Leninism, it speaks of a society in which classes do not exist, and the workers truly have control of their society without Government presence.

[–] Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How about not ending capitalism, but trying as hard as possible to anticipate and balance the negative effects of wealth concentration with the overall beneficial effects of competative innovation?

[–] APassenger@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Socialism sounds good to me...

[–] Radicalized@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Socialism is not communism-lite. Communism is socialism.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago

To be exact, socialism is a transitional stage between capitalism and communism where the working class holds power in society, but vestigial capitalist relations still exist.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Competitive innovation doesn't require capitalism, while wealth concentration is literally the point of the system.

[–] Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can you point to an example of a socialist country (by your definition of socialist) that is superior in a certain industry innovation-wise compared to a capitalist (by your definition of capitalist) country?

Also, Idk what you define capitalism as, but I'm pretty sure meriam webster doesn't call it "a system for concentrating wealth". That might be a common result for many types of capitalism, but it is not the defining characteristic.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

China, Laos, Cuba, and Vietnam are all socialist countries. The definition is pretty simple. In a socialist country the working class holds power, and the core economy of the country is either publicly or cooperatively owned. This is the case for all of these countries.

Capitalism is a system where the class of people who own capital hold power in society and make it work in their own interest. The dynamics of capitalism necessitate capital concentration through competition. Companies compete with one another on the open market, and companies that succeed grow. As the companies grow, it takes increasingly higher initial investment in order to compete with these companies. A scrappy startup is not going to be able to take on Amazon which enjoys economies of scale, massive supply chains, and brand recognition. Over time, you end up with consolidation of all the capital in the hands of a few capitalists.

This is also illustrated mathematically in the game of monopoly. Everyone starts in a perfectly even position, and over time all the assets will end up being concentrated with a single player through the dynamics of the game. This is the defining characteristic of the system.

[–] Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I understand how capitalist competition often ends in monopoly, at least until the government steps in with anti-trust or there is significant innovation to undermine the monopoly. I wouldn't say this is the defining characteristic of capitalism because I use the word to describe countries that aren't total free markets because there aren't any countries that have totally free markets.

You didn't answer my question though, you just gave a list of countries (some of which, like China, I question are socialist at all). Are there any countries where "working class holds power, and the core economy of the country is either publicly or cooperatively owned" that have out-innovated countries that use capitalism?

What is the primary force that spurs innovation in a socialist country and how does it compare to the force that spurs innovation in a capitalist country?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The necessarily government represents the interests of the class that holds power. In a capitalist society that happens to be the capital owning class. This is why you see laws and regulations that inhibit monopolization erode over time. For example, US has very strong worker protections and laws ensuring fair competition after the New Deal was passed. All of that was then dismantled, and here's what a recent study analyzing many decades of US policy has to say about the state of things today:

What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

You didn’t answer my question though, you just gave a list of countries (some of which, like China, I question are socialist at all). Are there any countries where “working class holds power, and the core economy of the country is either publicly or cooperatively owned” that have out-innovated countries that use capitalism?

I did answer your question though. All these countries, including China, are socialist because it's the working class that holds power. We can look at the tangible outcomes in China such as poverty reduction programs that simply aren't happening in countries where capitalists are in charge. So, we don't have to take their word for it, we can just look at the outcomes. Let's look at China in a bit more detail though.

First, it's worth noting that 87.6% of young Chinese identify with Marxism, and the party has 95 million members. I think it's reasonable to assume that people of a country where vast majority of young people identify as Marxist understand what sort of a political system their country has.

All the essential industry is state owned, and capitalism is only allowed to exist within special economic zones. However, even Marx argued that capitalism is likely a necessary stage for developing productive resources needed for socialism and communism to be possible. Arguing that capitalism being allowed in China makes it capitalist would be akin to arguing that having social services such as public healthcare makes Canada communist.

One simple test to consider is that China doesn't suffer from regular crashes seen under capitalism. An inherent contradiction within capitalism is that the capitalists always want to cut pay for their employees to minimize the costs, while they also require consumers with enough spending power to consume the commodities they produce. This is why capitalism results in regular economic crashes when wages fall below the point where consumption can keep up with the rate of commodity production. At that point you end up with overproduction and a crash. If China was capitalist then it should be experiencing these kinds of crashes regularly just like actual capitalist nations are in the Western world.

And a related point is that quality of life in China continues to steadily improve and the government is actively working on doing things like eliminating poverty, creating public infrastructure, providing healthcare, housing, food, and education for all citizens. Chinese government practically eliminated poverty, and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. Social mobility in China is actually higher than it is in US. The opposite is currently happening in capitalist countries. In particular, it's instructive to look at the differences in development between China and India with both having started roughly in the same place and having comparable population.

Another indicator is that China used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century, they built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade. This is another thing we don't see happening under capitalism because capitalists don't see significant profit from infrastructure investments. This is the main reason US infrastructure is currently crumbling.

Finally, 90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. This sort of home ownership is not seen in capitalist countries where housing has become a commodity.

What is the primary force that spurs innovation in a socialist country and how does it compare to the force that spurs innovation in a capitalist country?

People wanting to do interesting things because they're curious and intelligent, The same force that has driven innovation throughout history. Are you seriously not to be able to imagine having any sort of hobby or interest that's not profit driven. Why do you think millions of people around the world create innovative open source projects without any profit motive. You're literally using an innovative federated platform built by volunteers to ask this inane question.

[–] Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Arguing that capitalism being allowed in China makes it capitalist would be akin to arguing that having social services such as public healthcare makes Canada communist.

I'd totally argue that having public healthcare, publicly-owned infrastructure, makes Canada or the US socialist lol. Technically the "workers" don't directly own the particular publicly-owned means of production, but they definitely do have a say in how it is run through their vote.

Anyway...

Given that you say China is socialist (which seems insane given it is literally an authoritarian state: the workers don't own the means of production, the state does!), my original question:

"Can you point to an example of a socialist country (by your definition of socialist) that is superior in a certain industry innovation-wise compared to a capitalist (by your definition of capitalist) country?"

Seems kind of stupid given that China is definitely leading in certain industries compared to more "capitalist" (US, EU, etc.) nations. (Mainly manufacturing industries).

So I'll ask a different question.

Given all the pro-china arguments you've listed. Would you want to live there if you got the chance? And if so/if not, why?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

If you'd argue that then you don't understand what socialism is. Socialism is a transitional state between capitalism and communism where workers have taken power in society, but vestigial capitalist economic relations still remain. The working class does not hold power in Canada or even have any meaningful participation in politics. Canadians are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.

Given that you say China is socialist (which seems insane given it is literally an authoritarian state: the workers don’t own the means of production, the state does!), my original question:

It does seem insane when you just make things up that have nothing to do with reality.

Given all the pro-china arguments you’ve listed. Would you want to live there if you got the chance? And if so/if not, why?

I absolutely would live in China, and I've been learning Mandarin for the past year for the express purpose of moving there at some point. I've met plenty of people from China in university, many of whom moved back since. Knowing what people from China actually say about life in China compared to deranged fantasies people in the west appear to have, there's little question regarding where I'd rather live given a choice.