Because they would be privatized and maintained by the cheapest ass companies and they would do a shit job of maintaining the cars and there's no way in hell I'm sleeping in a public bed that is poorly maintained.
this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2023
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Interestingly, the video goes into exactly why there are so many quality sleeper train offerings in Europe compared to North America. In North America, most of the tracks are privately-owned freight rail, and the rest is a patchwork of local monopolies of passenger rail (e.g., Amtrak, Via Rail, regional/commuter rail, etc.), and none of them are being made to cooperate or allow interoperability.
Whereas in Europe, having so many countries in such close proximity, they were forced to make their systems interoperable and standardized and allowing open access (much like roads are open access to drivers or buses), so what you get is many state-run operators and private operators in a competitive market without local monopolies. The result is high competitiveness, high standardization, high interoperability, and thus high quality and availability of service for competitive prices.
Not really. The tracks can only take so many trains, so one more operator just pushes other trains off the track. Which might be fine if it meant that the trains that did run were hyper-competitive. But they're not, because the train companies tend to get a near monopoly on a particular kind of service (fast trains vs stopping trains, for example). And if there are two companies running the same service, you'll only have half as many trains to choose from for the return journey. It's a ridiculous thing.
I should point out that I am speaking from the UK, which privatised its trains with indecent haste and far more destructive enthusiasm than many other EU countries. But EU-required rail privatisation is a fucking disaster. It makes no sense.
Public transport is best run as a monopoly and is too vital a part of economic infrastructure to leave in the hands of idle shareholders.
You're wrong. First of all, competition does work in Europe. Second - all railways in the UK are 100% nationalised. And that's why they suck so hard.
UK railways are nationalised? Are you from 25 years in the past, or 5 years in the future?
They are 100% nationalised since 1940-s. The government has full control over infrastructure, fares, stock, routes and literally everything else.
In the UK, as in the United Kingdom? Our railways were privatised in 1997. They've become so bad, there is talk of renationalising them.
Technically, some of our railways are owned by the governments of other countries (I think France and Germany amongst others) - but not our own.
They are 100% owned by the British government. There's nothing privatised in the UK and never was. And that's why they suck so hard.
As for German involvement - the British government just outsourced day to day operations to Germans and others. Just like they outsource No. 10 floor wiping. That doesn't mean that No. 10 is privatised. It's the choice of the government and that's how they decided to spend their budget.
I mean... it's literally not - we obviously have some fundamental misunderstanding between us and neither of is going to get our point across to the other, so I'll simply agree "The railways are currently shittier than they should be" :)
Not sure how there can be any misunderstanding. It's just a fact that British railways are nationalised. It is also quite obvious that privatisation and deregulation works really well as we have a good example from the EU and Japan. Oh, speaking of EU, this privatisation and deregulation was one of the key points for many Labour voters to support Brexit.
I'm not sure either! British Rail was literally, factually privatised and sold off to a lot of different private companies, over a few years running up until 1997. It has not been re-nationalised since. I can't understand how you wouldn't be aware of that, unless your view on what nationalised and privatised means is different than the news/dictionary/encyclopaedia/anyone else.
The railways were nationalised between 1948 and 1997, but it's currently 2023 - and unless you're from a parallel universe where Neil Kinnock won, they haven't been nationalised for two and a half decades now.
Worth taking statistics with a pinch of salt, but apparently after a couple of decades of underperforming privatised service, the UK population is overwhelmingly (across both sides of the political spectrum) in support of re-nationalising the railways.
Who sets the fares? The government (through DfT).
Who owns the infrastructure? The government (through Network Rail).
Who decides which routes to run and how? The government (through Rail Delivery Group).
Who is managing the ticketing? The government (through Rail Delivery Group).
Who decides which companies to hire to run day to day operations and how much to pay them? The government (through DfT).
What is privatised exactly? Once again, British railways are 100% nationalised. This is just a fact. And this is the only reason why they are so poor. The so called "privatisation" never really happened, what happened is that the government created a scapegoat to blame all their failures on. And they stole a lot of tax payer money along the way. Just like it ALWAYS happens with nationalised industries.
Network Rail profits are at least to some extent nationalised, so have to be used for railway reinvestment instead of shareholders, yes - and therefore additionally that means indirectly, the government kind of have some representation in the Rail Delivery Group, amongst the privately owned operators that make up the rest of it.
Some of the fares (not all), or at least their rises each year, are regulated by the government, the rest are set by the individual companies.
The privatisation is the ownership of the trains, the stations, the staff, the companies that run them, and the investment of profits - now I know some of the companies have had to be individually renationalised as a "company of last resort" after they've failed, but that's only in the last couple of years - there's been over 20 years of profits going to shareholders and not being used to improve the railway - which is why at commuter hours, you still, in 2023, have 400 people trying to get onto a 35 year old, 2 carriage Sprinter - despite the billions each year paid from public money. Like with the energy companies, we're playing "private profits and public losses".
I sort of get how you could see regulations/guidance/controls as being a bit like "they own it all", but I'd assume you don't see all British pubs as nationalised, despite the fact that (local or national) government controls whether a pub is allowed to exist in that location, who is allowed to run it, what the opening hours are allowed to be, what the minimum price of an alcohol unit can be, the sizes of single servings of different types of alcoholic drink etc etc.
Anyway, if you perceive regulation as nationalisation, we'll never agree or even reach a middle ground of understanding on that term specifically, though would both agree "What they have currently is not as good as it could be" - and I imagine we both agree that the railways are important, are an essential alternative to individual car travel and desperately need some support and investment to improve.
I don't think I can spend any longer talking about this, but thanks - it's been interesting to see a different point of view :)
Just like it ALWAYS happens with nationalised industries.
It was an interesting, err, "conversation" I guess, but I am starting to see that the disagreement is based in the fact that you are viewing things through a particular lens.
If Europeans (in general) love sleeper trains, why are there so little of those? Even in Russia, sleeper trains are still the main and preferred way of transportation between most regional centers (for the majority of travelers I would say it is "default" one), while in the EU most destinations are not even covered by a sleeper. I hope new companies like "European Sleeper" blossom because I personally prefer sleepers very much, but to say "Europeans love those" is untrue, since it is still mostly something exotic.
It’s more of a comeback moment and it takes time to reno all the old trains. I love the Nightjet but let’s be honest, the cars themselves are very funky.
I live 15 minutes walking from a European Sleeper stop and can’t wait to use it.
There were many more of these lines like 20 years ago. But these idiots abandoned these lines because for whatever reason. I'll never understand why plane is developed and supported like it is and train is completely abandoned. Our politicians are useless shits is my best hypothesis at this point.
Man, I have lived in Europe for the past 11 years and have yet to meet anyone who has used them or commented on them. I know someone who went on vacation to the US and took an overnight Amtrak for fun.
I'm sure they exist but really, people fly on longer voyages. Bullet trains may be changing that. A Madrid->Paris line will open soon that'll do it in 5 hours. Which gets close to the speed of a plane when airport security and the like is taken into account and should give much more comfort.
I've used them multiple times, when I was traveling with my class or alone. I wouldn't say I love them, but they are OK. In the last 10-15 years flights have become appallingly cheap, so that's usually easier.
Sleeper trains have lost their popularity when airlines got deregulated and companies like Ryanair took off with super cheap flights. This might be changing soon as EU has deregulated railways a few years ago and there's a fierce competition to make trains cheaper than flights again.
I live in germany. Every single time I take a longer trip, I look for overnight train options. I have never in my life used a sleeper train because they either don't exist on that route or are so much more expensive I'd rather do the less comfortable option. I would love to love sleeper trains.
Same here, every time I was driving train at night in germany. I rarely was in a sleeper train and if I was. Only in the normal seating compartments. They are just way to expensive. I sometimes look for fun what a flight would cost. And mostly its more than the half...
And don't get me started with train driving to other European countries
I sometimes look for fun what a flight would cost. And mostly its more than the half…
Those are rookie numbers https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/20/flying-in-europe-up-to-30-times-cheaper-than-train-says-greenpeace
Because I have so little time off, by the time the train gets there it’s time to go home so I can make it to work on Monday.
Because it makes USAians think of sleeper agents, which are communist, which is anti-capitalist, ergo sleeper trains are made by communists to weaken the capitalist of Americania, which is immoral and deeply unpatriotic. /s
Seriously though, good video. Regulation is very important.
My main thing now why I go for cars/planes over train right now, is train is just expensive. For where I’m at most places I’ve checked itd sadly cost more to take the Amtrak then it is for a plane ticket. If trains were cheaper then I wouldn’t mind at all.
If a train ticket is even 1.5x times the plane ticket, I'd pick the train ticket every time. Unfortunately it's usually quite a bit more expensive.
I don't need all the idling, waiting in lines, baggage restrictions, expensive mediocre food, etc.
I've done overnight Amtrak trips in a "Roomette". My way of looking at it is the journey is part of the vacation whereas flying is the means to get you where you're going. A cross country train trip can take a few days requiring multiple overnights. If you factor in what a hotel would cost plusmeals (Amtrak includes two meals a day) then that offsets the cost. Besides that you can carry on drinks and snacks plus you don't have to pay a fee for luggage. I've met a lot of nice people on the train, it's definitely a more civilized way to travel compared to the airline cattle cars. Though it won't appeal to everyone It's more for older people with a lot of spare time that always dreamed of driving across the US.
Amtrak is on my bucket list. I'm in Europe so I'm more familiar with international trains here.
I quite love the relaxed mode of travel, though I'm yet to experience a night train though. I might hop on one of those new lines that are opening up across Europe. The ultimate dream of course is a system like China but with fewer human rights violations.
After riding Amtrak you may feel like your human rights have been violated LOL. I joke of course, just know some routes are notorious for being late. Unlike Europe our train terminals aren't always located in the center of town and if you miss a connecting train the next one may not be until the next day. Most people in the US don't get much vacation time so this is another reason they avoid Amtrak.
Yeah I just came back from a US trip a few weeks ago and considered NY to Washington, but ended up with a rental car for convenience. The DC metro system seems decent though.
Last time I looked at a sleeper car for my trip on Amtrak it was like $1500. Regular seat was $300.
freedom train, in the land of the fee
I have a hard enough time sleeping anywhere that isn’t my own bed. No way I’d ever get any sleep on one of these.
Downvoting this comment solves the problem how?
Europeans don't love sleeper trains. A very small subset of us do. The rest of us stay away, because being essentially trapped in a 6 berth room with unknown creeps of any gender, is the opposite of safe travel.
Europeans love travelling by train, but sleepers are used only by a small minority.
Umm, in Finland there are sleeping cabins for 1-3 people and you need to reserve the whole cabin. No randos.
Ok, I guess I should amend it with "... and aren't prepared to pay 5-10x the flight fare to book a full cabin to avoid randos".
Unless you're travelling in a 4-6 person group, the costs are prohibitive. You need to deal with the creeps.
Just checked the prices for a round trip a while ago to Vienna from Amsterdam by train (Nightjet, full cabin booked) and by plane with KLM for 2 people. Prices were very similar.