Also, nuance is one of the more recent words to have a new usage like literally, which can now mean figuratively. When people say their argument is nuanced they mean it is good or correct. It reminds me of the use objective to describe a person to pretend they don't have biases to incorrectly validate their arguments.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

me: lot of pancakes out there

you: actually i see more waffles

(with peace and love haha you make excellent points i just couldn’t resist)

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

In the context of this self-referencing observation, I would say, I see lots of waffles pretending to be pancakes.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 points 6 hours ago

i approve and adopt your extension of the metaphor

[–] Jomega@lemmy.world 14 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

One time I said AI porn was unethical (because it is) and people here thought I was calling for a ban on all porn. At no point did I say that porn was unethical as a rule, and if I did believe that I wouldn't have mentioned AI at all.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 9 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

It'd be nice if we could regulate porn in good faith. Every attempt to regulate it in the US has been an obvious attempt to shut it down, but it should be regulated like anything else. Sex toys, too. Lots of questionable substances are used in sex toys that probably shouldn't be inserted into the human body.

[–] weker01@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Sex toys are not regulated in the us?! There are a ton of regulations in the EU unfortunately not the same in all countries but some even classify them as medical devices. There is also the standard ISO 3533 "Sex toys — Design and safety requirements for products in direct contact with genitalia, the anus, or both" which is not required at the moment? is still used as a guideline.

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[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 6 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

this shit pisses me off, my instinct is to say irrationally, but i feel it’s probably totally rational to have your own carefully chosen words used in such a hamfisted perversion

yesterday i made a post saying “hey look there’s a pattern to how ableist terms begin as descriptive or medical terms and its only later they are coopted as insults, the most recent of which is ‘neurodivergent’”

top comment? “dude stop telling us to stop using the word ‘neurodivergent.’” 30+ upvotes. and when i respond saying that actually making people abandon the word wasn’t my goal? downvotes.

like what even is the point of writing words if crusty ass debate lords insist on interpretation to mean the exact opposite 80% of the time?

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

The short answer is that the trend you are describing does not apply to the word neurodivergent because neurodivergent is not a medical term.

Neurodivergent is a nonmedical term that describes people whose brains develop or work differently for some reason. This means the person has different strengths and struggles from people whose brains develop or work more typically. While some people who are neurodivergent have medical conditions, it also happens to people where a medical condition or diagnosis hasn’t been identified.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/23154-neurodivergent

Your argument was a false equivalency that the r-slur and neurodivergent share the same origin and thus will share the same fate. The implication of such a line reasoning is that since all of these ableist words became known as insults we shouldn't be concerned about the usage of any of them. In other words, legitimizing the r-slur and other ableist language because eventually neurodivergent will be as bad.

People in that thread explained how neurodivergent is fundamentally different. Neurodivergent is a nonmedical word people are choosing to describe themselves as that validates them as a opposed to a medical word that was chosen for them that pathologizes them. Your argument then attempted to dismiss this by saying all of these words have different origins. When in fact they have two, medical and nonmedical.

The euphemism treadmill argument presented by your meme attempts to ignore that distinction to make all the words seem equivalent. When in fact the words used before neurodivergent were always ableist because they were always hurtful even if that wasn't initially recognized as such by neurotypical people using them.

Like trans and cis, neurodivergent and neurotypical acknowledge a difference without being opinionated about which side of that difference is normal or abnormal. These terms are opinionated about which side has privilege and which side does not. These kind of terms receive backlash from the people who find themselves in the privileged cis and neurotypical categories because they realize these labels exposes the power that comes from the privilege of being the default.

Rather than engaging in a good faith discussion about this privilege, those fearful that they will lose this privilege engage in bad faith discussions intended to undermine the mechanism that exposed that privilege. These discussions tend to involve fallacies and usage of words like nuance and objective to obscure what is really happening.

The problem for the people acting in bad faith now is, we've all done this song and dance multiple times now. We know what to look for. We will call it out. We get to keep telling the truth and using words that expose the truth.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

two separate discussions.

i fully agree with everyone who is saying what you are saying here (including yourself). thank you! group A, call them. if you read those comments deeply, you will see i have responded with cheerful enthusiasm and accepted their contribution. i thank you for it here too.

other people, we’ll say group B (perhaps a smaller number but i never claimed it was 50/50) falsely just said “you are telling us not to use the word neurodivergent. stop it.”

please, im begging. i don’t want to be an ass and block you but if you come into a separate thread of mine to give your reading on dozens and dozens of comments, read all of them? :(

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 5 hours ago (3 children)

Your argument disregarded the arguments that refuted your central point, group A, in a very cheerful manner and instead hyperfocused on arguments that were easier to disparage, group B.

My arguments focused on group A because that it is what should have been the end to a good faith discussion. Your insistence on going after group B, a more defensible position, is an attempt to continue this discussion under a veneer of good faith.

Multiple arguments have established your argument's position to be false. If you want to continue to have these discussions in good faith I highly recommend you engage with the implications of your argument and its position being incorrect.

please, im begging. i don’t want to be an ass and block you but if you come into a separate thread of mine to give your reading on dozens and dozens of comments, read all of them? :(

I read the other post and did not engage because I saw it had reached the limits of a good faith discussion. I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now I see a new post that attempts to continue that discussion without addressing the lessons learned or misconceptions exposed.

You're not begging you're threatening. I will not comply in advance. I will tell the truth and expose the truth. And, thankfully I am not the only person who will do so.

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[–] MBM@lemmings.world 7 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

how dare you say we piss on the poor

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 4 points 9 hours ago (3 children)

i never said that! i only piss on the MOON

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[–] hmonkey@lemy.lol 17 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I like to insult and block these people. My fear of course, with Lemmy being so small, is I will block everyone. Then again, that's still better than dealing with illiterate, contrarian assholes

[–] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 12 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

I feel the same way, then I look at my blocklist and it's just lemmy.ml, anime subs, 3 people, some political terms, and a bot. I also have a .world account I use when I want to view the whole Lemmy experience anyways. Tbh I still feel kinda bad about blocking .ml, there was some cool peeps on there but I just can't deal with all the tankie drama

[–] hmonkey@lemy.lol 6 points 12 hours ago

I also blocked ml, it just ain't worth it. I figure the cool people will eventually leave for another instance anyways

[–] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

You can block terms?

[–] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

I use Voyager (mobile app), I have no idea if you can on desktop but I would assume so.

[–] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 hours ago

Thanks for the tip. I have Voyager, I didn't realize you could use it like that.

[–] thesohoriots@lemmy.world 10 points 12 hours ago

That’s French toast erasure.

[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 13 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Yep that's one of my pet peeves about the Internet. People love to try to put words in your mouth. It gets a bit tiring having to tell every one of those jabronis that I never said any of those words, and they should re-read what I did actually write instead.

[–] PhobosAnomaly@feddit.uk 5 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

If I see someone's reply start with "So, you..." - I'm already rolling my eyes so fast that I'm time traveling back to nineteen-blackandwhite. In general, it's an overly reductive view on the statement that misrepresents the initial comment in order to try and spark a pointless argument.

It's exhausting.

(in b4 "so you hate reading comments then?" 😂)

e: it's not just Lemmy to be fair - the other popular aggregator, most tabloid news sites with comments, and a lot of gaming news sites with social interaction are largely the same.

[–] Ashen44@lemmy.ca 2 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

so you want to have nuanced and reasonable discussions on the internet?

[–] PhobosAnomaly@feddit.uk 2 points 12 hours ago

In all honesty, I've found a more willing group of people to discuss things with - even if a lot of the time, our platforms and views are very different. There's a larger acceptance on Lemmy of other people's views and their right to hold them which is super cool, every now and then though I get brought down to earth with a bump.

That's the internet, though!

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[–] trolololol@lemmy.world 0 points 5 hours ago (3 children)

Tell me you're not married without saying you're not married

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[–] Bender_on_Fire@lemmy.world 5 points 12 hours ago

While I don't want to deny that people try to put words into others mouths, I think context is still important. It is possible and even quite typical to send messages beyond the meaning of the actual words used in a statement and simply playing dumb when someone calls you out for doing that is also not a great look.

Think of going to a waffles-convention and just walking around claiming that you, in fact, like pancakes. Of course people are going to assume you're a troll.

It's important to think of different perspectives and at least consider if something you meant in a very innocent way might still not sit right with someone else. Certainly not easy to do, mistakes will always happen, but honestly trying makes a huge difference imo.

[–] FabledAepitaph@lemmy.world 4 points 11 hours ago (5 children)

Bruh, it's so real. I made a comment that whenever I get messed up food at a restaurant, id rather just ask for a refund than ask for a replacement. Obviously there's a lot of nuance in this comment, but I had people taking all kinds of meanings from it. One guy told me I was a complete asshole and some other stuff, just because I'd rather have a refund at the McDonald's instead of asking the overworked, underpaid employees to remake my order as I sat in the drive-through, and so I wouldn't have to pull over and wait even longer.

People just want to be pissed off and angry.

[–] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 hours ago

And some are just trolling, that sounds like you were trolled.

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[–] zea_64@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 10 hours ago

Equally common, unfortunately, is people who don't state their point, they just lay out the pieces and expect you to put it together, but then if you say something bad about it suddenly that's "not what I said". Schrodinger's point.

I've developed a response to comments that do this saying-it-but-not-saying-it thing, and while I try to judge sincerity, there are false positives. An okay approach I've found is just to ask people to clarify: if they say something reasonable they're genuine, and if they dodge the question they're a troll or someone who doesn't want to admit they believe something bad.

[–] LifeLemons@lemmy.ml 4 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (4 children)

I like cameras to capture picture

[–] Midnitte@beehaw.org 3 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

So you don't like artists?

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[–] KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 2 points 12 hours ago (4 children)

I like pancakes.

[–] weeeeum@lemmy.world 4 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

Oh so you hate minorities too?

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