this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023

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Cashless shops operating i̶l̶l̶e̶g̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ (legally) in Netherlands a̶n̶d̶ (but not) Belgium; corporate disobedience (self.philosophy)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by activistPnk to c/philosophy@mander.xyz

18 comments fedilink hide all child comments

cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/1624944

(edit: from another crosspost, apparently NL shops are operating legally)

Saw a “no cash” sign at a bakery. Conversation went like this:

me: So, no cash? What’s going on there?

cashier: Yeah, we’re not allowed to accept cash.

me: Isn’t it the other way around? Isn’t there a legal tender law in #Netherlands?

cashier: Yeah, we’re not allowed to refuse cash.

me: So this sign posting says loud and clear “we are breaking the law”, in effect, no? Is that not being enforced?

cashier: That’s right. It’s unenforced in Netherlands.

The same thing is happening in #Belgium. This kind of forces me to revise my understanding of European culture & norms. In both the US & Europe there is a culture of certain laws (rightfully) going unenforced against individual natural people. E.g. small amounts of marijuana possession. But I previously thought when it came to moral/legal people (businesses), they simply complied with the law in Europe to a great extent.

IOW, companies complied with laws in Europe. Contrast that with the US where corporations small and large will blatantly disregard any laws that interfere with profit based on the calculated risk of getting caught and risk of penalties.

I just wonder if Europe is being influenced by cavalier US corps and changing to comply only when penalties are likely. Or is this something I had wrong all along.. that EU companies were always loose with compliance?

#WarOnCash

update

The original post was censored without reason by @knollebol4 @nlemmy.nl. It’s now a non-existent node, perhaps rightfully so if it’s going to use an anti-spam tool against ideas.

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[–] max@nano.garden 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes, it is increasingly difficult to pay with cash in the Netherlands. Even at the Albert Heijn they have set it up such that it is a lot more convenient NOT to pay with cash. They have a large amount of self-service pin-only checkouts, and one or maybe two workers accepting cash at the manual checkout lane.

One path is to make an effort to resist this digital move and pressure politicians so that they enforce these type of rules and that cash is accepted. But I think this can at best slow this process down.

The other path is to embrace the digital move and start integrating crypto currencies into our societies in a more substantial manner. I know that many people have given up in crypto, but, putting speculation and hype aside, crypto is the best way we know of to integrate cash-like payments into the digital world. Right? Or is this something others disagree with?

[–] to55@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I read in the linked article that the upcoming digital Euro will be sort of a cryptocurrency, and is as close to digital cash as it can get. I think it’s a very interesting development. Transactions can even be made if both the sender and the receiver are offline.

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/211268/europese-commissie-presenteert-wetsvoorstel-voor-digitale-euro.html

(Translated to English by Google)

[–] max@nano.garden 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Interesting. I haven't followed development in the space of "official" crypto currencies, but my impression is that these will probably be centralized, have little to no privacy features, and that the governments will be able to control access to the funds.

But I may be wrong - maybe they are actually building decentralized crypto networks? I just find it hard to believe that a government would do this.

[–] to55@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 year ago

I’ll try to find the article I read. If I find it, I’ll report back (;

[–] activistPnk 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Cash is still the least common denominator because cryptocurrency excludes low tech users & it’s also unusable in a variety of tech failures. So cash should be held in the highest regard and protected as such. Cash is also the only instrument by which two people can transact without interference. E.g. cryptocurrency is not 100% fungible because a gov can issue an order that certain addresses are blackballed.

I also welcome cryptocurrency though to fill gaps where cash is impractical, like sending money remotely. Cryptocurrency is 2nd best to cash and banks should have the lowest regard because they can (and do) bully, exclude, and mistreat people in a variety of ways. Banks also push political agendas like blocking donations to #wikileaks. This will only worsen once cash is out of the picture.

Also consider the transparency. E.g. if an American buys a beer at a bar, there is currently nothing to stop the bank from selling that info to data miners who then sell that info to insurance companies. A health insurer could increase premiums based on that risk info. Also if the bar is mostly only reachable by car the car insurer might be interested as well. In Europe you have to trust the GDPR to protect (that’s a big ask!) So I’m only willing to buy alcohol, tobacco, mj, smart shops, etc using cash. Cryptocurrency does not solve the privacy problem sufficiently enough.

[–] max@nano.garden 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You are right... Cash is king, and letting it be phased out is not a good idea.

You have me on board - how do we stop this?

[–] activistPnk 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I’ve taken some individual actions which can only make a difference collectively, progressing in difficulty:

Started off switching back to cash in all the simple scenarios (paying grocers, restaurants, fuel). Some credit cards give the biggest rebates in those categories precisely because the credit card adds no benefit to those types purchases.
When dining with a group of people, insist on getting your own separate bill. Otherwise if just one person insists on using a credit card, the whole bill would be paid by that card & the resto would have no metric showing that they were fed in part by a cash payment. Restaurants have been baited¹ by Visa so it’s important to offset that tactic by making sure restaurants get cash payments. ① Visa offered a $10k bonus to restaurants who commit to refusing cash for 1 year. That’s an easy decision for an owner to make if all their payments are by card anyway.
If a business is needlessly cashless (e.g. they are a brick and mortar establishment), boycott them.
Buying other goods (not food, fuel, or services) with credit card sometimes have extended warranty benefits. I eventually decided to give those up & pay cash. But then I found that cash is more widely accepted at street markets and prices are often quite low (esp. for 2nd hand). So shopping at street markets becomes more interesting.
Boycott Amazon just because they are probably the most harmful retailer anyway. Once you take that step, it’s easier to nix online shopping entirely because there’s not much competition left anyway. Buy local.
Boycott products from members of betterthancashalliance.org. E.g. #Unilever. That’s a huge range of products. Note that Bill Gates is a key player behind the #betterThanCashAlliance.
File complaints and put of a fight whenever the gov. forces you to pay electronically to a government office. You can boycott the private sector but you can’t quit taxation, so it’s important to make the biggest stink when a public service requires non-cash payments. If you are an American outside the US, non-US banks usually discriminate based on nationality, in which case you can call out a human rights breach under UDHR article 1.
Pay utility bills in cash. Yeah it’s a hassle but in some cases you can reduce billing frequency to quarterly & they’re happy to accept large advance payments as well.
When donating money to a non-profit, don’t let them dictate terms. They have no leverage. Get their mailing address to mail small cash donations, or find out which conferences they will appear at and pay them in person.
In the US you can pay taxes in cash. Not sure about other countries.
If you run a business of course consider making it cash only. If you’re in a country like Belgium where accepting electronic payment is an obligation, offer a 10% discount to cash payers.

[–] max@nano.garden 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks! Not only is this a great list of actions, but it also has helped me see this whole issue from a new perspective. More specifically, I multiple times I have tried to switch to cash-only because of privacy reasons, and I eventually become discouraged. For example, I recently gave up again. I have a shared card with my girlfriend, and she doesn't really care much about privacy, so I felt like I was punishing myself for not good reason by paying with cash if my girlfriend next was going to pay with our card anyway.

But now that you have framed it from the point of view of those accepting cash, it does give me an additional source of motivation. It's not only about my personal privacy, but also about pressuring vendors to accept it. This makes it worth it even in cases where there might not be a privacy benefit. Starting now, attempt #I-lost-count begins.

[–] activistPnk 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Another thing to consider is when you pay by card, there are fees. You don’t see the fees but the merchant does. The merchant receives less money than you paid. That profit margin goes to the same segment of the financial industry that is attacking the cash option. So IOW, it feeds the adversary who works against us (the consumers).

I started off with the realization that when I pay my accountant, I want her to receive 100% of what I pay because she does good work and she deserves all of it. Thus cash, check, or anything that does not diminish her share is doing her a favor at no cost to me. Almost like giving her a tip at no cost to me (except maybe postage - but that’s still money better spent anyway). Well that idea extends to other businesses as long as you’re not shopping at a scummy shop like Amazon or Walmart. You probably want to support the businesses you choose to patronize if you choose ethical vendors to start with.

I used to shop using a rebate card. I eventually decided the ~1% kickback is prostituting myself cheaply. I gladly gave up the rebate to take back my privacy (and thus control). I made the same decision with grocery loyalty cards. the 1% savings is not worth the data they fully exploit. So I ditched the loyalty cards & pay cash.

[–] max@nano.garden 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This week I've been paying by cash, and I noticed a few things.

One thing is that there is a lot of people paying with cash that are doing so because they do not have another option. Some of them are simply tourists without a working card, but I suspect some of them might really have no card at all.

The other is that the people at the shop do notice when a long line of buyers stand to pay with cash. I have seen cashiers struggling to get someone to stand on the second cash register to offload some customers.

As for the ethical vendors... I struggle with this. It is just so much more convenient to go buy from the Albert Heijn that's right under my apartment. I tried the shops around, but they rarely have what I want, products are often more expensive, and lower quality. I also don't know how to tell whether specific small vendors are ethical vendors or not. So, for now I just go to AH for most of my purchases.

[–] activistPnk 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

One thing is that there is a lot of people paying with cash that are doing so because they do not have another option.

Indeed unbanked people exist. I’m working on getting to that point deliberately (or nearly so) but many people are trapped by unfortunate circumstances. The unbanked population helps keep cash alive. This is precisely why #BillGates and the #betterThanCashAlliance are working so hard to get banking service to everyone who is unbanked. Once they succeed, it’ll remove a significant hurdle to a cashless society. They really play it up to try to make the public think they’re working to help needy people of course. When really they crave that control they will have over people when cash is gone.

long line of buyers stand to pay with cash

That seems to be a deliberate part of the #warOnCash. For a while there were self-scan kiosks for cash payers. Then they removed them. They want to punish cash payers. This only inspires me further to dig my heels in and wait in line. Too much of that and I’ll just bounce to another store.

It is just so much more convenient to go buy from the Albert Heijn that’s right under my apartment.

I don’t know much about AH in terms of ethics. But I see that they are quite big, if not the biggest in some regions - which is often synonymous with lousy ethics. I have the same struggle in my area. The big chain grocers often have an anti-food-waste program where they mark down food that is near expiry. So I buy the marked down stuff to both help fight food waste and keep profit margins down. I guess smaller grocers just end up wasting whatever expires. Aldi & Lidl seem like a good balance. Smaller than the big chains, cheaper, and also have some kind of anti-waste program.

[–] SpaceCadet@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago

There is no "legal tender" law in the Netherlands. Businesses can choose which method of payment they accept, as long as they make it clear up front.

Source: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/geldzaken/vraag-en-antwoord/kan-ik-met-een-wettig-betaalmiddel-overal-betalen

[–] franglais@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In my experience, it is often the opposite, many small businesses refuse to pay the banks excessive charges for the right to use a card machine, and so have "cash only" policies.

[–] activistPnk 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are you talking w.r.t. Netherlands, Belgium, or elsewhere?

Europe used to have a fair number of cash only stores for the reason you mention. But Belgium recently changed the law. There are 3 laws on the books now:

You must accept cash (per the old still-existing Belgian legal tender law)
You must accept at least two forms of payment (new law)
Of the forms of payment you accept, one of them must be electronic (new law). Note that “electronic” need not necessarily involve a bank. E.g. cryptocurrency satisfies the compliance.

But Belgium is not enforcing law “1”.

[–] franglais@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sorry, I'm in France, I should have mentioned.

[–] activistPnk 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s redeeming. But I should point out France is on-board with the war on cash in other ways: they have banned cash transactions that exceed a certain threshold (€3k, i think?).

[–] franglais@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Doesn't help that we have a "banker" at the helm.