this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
30 points (94.1% liked)

Daystrom Institute

3453 readers
13 users here now

Welcome to Daystrom Institute!

Serious, in-depth discussion about Star Trek from both in-universe and real world perspectives.

Read more about how to comment at Daystrom.

Rules

1. Explain your reasoning

All threads and comments submitted to the Daystrom Institute must contain an explanation of the reasoning put forth.

2. No whinging, jokes, memes, and other shallow content.

This entire community has a “serious tag” on it. Shitposts are encouraged in Risa.

3. Be diplomatic.

Participate in a courteous, objective, and open-minded fashion. Be nice to other posters and the people who make Star Trek. Disagree respectfully and don’t gatekeep.

4. Assume good faith.

Assume good faith. Give other posters the benefit of the doubt, but report them if you genuinely believe they are trolling. Don’t whine about “politics.”

5. Tag spoilers.

Historically Daystrom has not had a spoiler policy, so you may encounter untagged spoilers here. Ultimately, avoiding online discussion until you are caught up is the only certain way to avoid spoilers.

6. Stay on-topic.

Threads must discuss Star Trek. Comments must discuss the topic raised in the original post.

Episode Guides

The /r/DaystromInstitute wiki held a number of popular Star Trek watch guides. We have rehosted them here:

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
williams_482@startrek.website
Equals@startrek.website
LibraryLass@startrek.website
khaosworks@startrek.website
30
Is the Captain Pike we know from Discovery and Strange New Worlds really the same dude from "The Cage"? (startrek.website)
submitted 1 year ago by adamkotsko@startrek.website to c/daystrominstitute@startrek.website
10 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Like basically every current Star Trek fan, I love the character of Captain Pike as Anson Mount portrays him. I wonder, though, to what extent he is actually the same guy from "The Cage." If we had only that episode to work from (which the Discovery and SNW writers initially did), we would know that he is broody, that he struggles with the responsibility he bears for the lives of others, and that he is remarkably able to conjure up emotions like anger and hate on command. Does any of that fit with Pike as we know him now?

One way to answer this question would be to imagine a very literal remake of the original pilot recast with the current actors. Everyone else would basically make sense, but I think seeing the current Pike act out his scenes would be jarring and even a little upsetting.

I'm sure we can come up with in-universe explanations -- he was having a particularly bad day, he's grown as a person, etc., etc. -- but it does seem like the current-day writers are departing pretty abruptly from the ostensible basis for the character. What do you think?

top 10 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I think he's absolutely the same person.

Firstly, "The Cage" portrays him at what I think is pretty unquestionably a low point - it wouldn't be fair to assume he's normally that angst-ridden.

BOYCE: Chris, you set standards for yourself no one could meet. You treat everyone on board like a human being except yourself, and now you're tired and you-

PIKE: You bet I'm tired. You bet. I'm tired of being responsible for two hundred and three lives. I'm tired of deciding which mission is too risky and which isn't, and who's going on the landing party and who doesn't, and who lives and who dies. Boy, I've had it, Phil.

The Pike we meet in "Discovery" is a couple of years removed from the mission on Rigel VII, and has been able to bounce back a bit. All the same, his character is practically defined by his faith in Starfleet's mission, and his willingness to make sacrifices in the pursuit of that mission, while also being acutely aware of the toll that takes..

[–] T156@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

The Pike we meet in “Discovery” is a couple of years removed from the mission on Rigel VII, and has been able to bounce back a bit. All the same, his character is practically defined by his faith in Starfleet’s mission, and his willingness to make sacrifices in the pursuit of that mission, while also being acutely aware of the toll that takes…

We also know that by Strange New Worlds, he's effectively retired to a small farm out in some snowy place, and decided to put his Starfleet career behind him.

It took an admiral effectively kidnapping him for him to even consider getting back in the Captain's Chair.

[–] Corgana@startrek.website 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've always preferred to skip "The Cage" and considered "The Menagerie" the definitive view of Pike's enterprise. It may appear to be a subtle distinction, but I think viewed through this lens the answer to your question becomes a much stronger "Yes".

[–] adamkotsko@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Could you elaborate?

[–] Corgana@startrek.website 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"The Cage" shows us a brief glimpse at a gruff, no-nonsense Pike who appears closed off if not straight-up unfriendly. "The Menagerie" shows us the same person but presented through the framing of not only a very well respected starfleet captain, but someone Spock would personally risk his entire career for. In this context TOS Pike's rough edges get considerably softened, which brings what we see of the character much more in line with what we've come to expect in SNW.

[–] VindictiveJudge@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"The Cage" also technically isn't part of continuity while "The Menagerie" definitely is. Also helps to smooth out some other stuff, like Pike making sexist comments in "The Cage"; that isn't part of "The Menagerie" so it didn't happen in continuity.

[–] NuPNuA@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Didn't they literally use clips from "The Cage" in a previously on in Discovery? I'd say that cononised it.

[–] vettnerk@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

When James Bond was no longer portrayed exclusively by Sean Connery it was pretty jarring. But I got used to it, and after a while I didn't really think much of it.

[–] tenebrisnox@feddit.uk 7 points 1 year ago

Jeffrey Hunter is pretty wooden in the role (as are almost all the actors in The Cage). He comes across as a flat, somewhat listless characters with issues with women. Anson Mount plays the role with a much better sense of the humanity of Pike.

I'd love to see a literal remake but there are scenes that just wouldn't work (eg. the creepy scene where the young female ensign speaks to him).

[–] khaosworks@startrek.website 5 points 1 year ago

Exhibit A would be the Pike that we see in SNW: “Among the Lotus Eaters” who damn nearly killed Zac Nguyen while a blank slate, before his memories and restraint were restored.

So yes, that Pike from 5 years ago is still under there. He grew as a person.