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Is NixOS at the advent of an implosion? | Community inquiry on recent drama (discuss.online)

submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by bsergay@discuss.online to c/linux@lemmy.ml

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NixOS' influence and importance at pushing Linux forward into the (previously) unexplored landscape of configuring your complete system through a single config file is undeniable. It's been a wild ride, but it was well worth it.

And although it has only been relatively recently that it has lost its niche status, the recent influx of so-called 'immutable' distros springing up like mushrooms is undeniably linked to and inspired by NixOS.

However, unfortunately, while this should have been very exciting times for what's yet to come, the recent drama surrounding the project has definitely tarnished how the project is perceived.

NixOS' ideas will definitely live on regardless. But how do you envision NixOS' own future? Any ETA's for when this drama will end? Which lessons have we learned (so far) from this drama? Are there any winners as a result of this drama? Could something like this happen to any distro?

In case you're out of the loop. Though, there's a lot that has transpired since but which hasn't been rigorously documented at a single place; like how 4 out of 5 NixOS board members have quit over the last 2 months or so.

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[–] GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

So, "disabling immutability" therefore only applies to 'hacks'. Right?

Idk if everything can br called "hacks" but mostly yea.

(and also how ~/.local/share/themes could be utilized for this)

I know but idk if GUI apps and extensions can see themes installed in ~/.local and how many installation guides tell about that method.

Fedora Atomic's new OCI-enabled model does allow this.

Idk how it works and how simple it is but gtk that.

Fact of the matter and the issue at hand is that traditional distros don't deal with issues like these. Right?

Exactly.

Similarly, 'immutable' distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their not newbie-friendly 'immutable' distro.

But we're talking about situation when user-friendly distros become immutable. If the user willingly chooses an advanced distro, it's not the distro's fault but, for example, you said that Fedora expects their immutable options to become mainstream. I know that Fedora and other immutable distros are often recommended for new users now. This means that the ones that recommend them consider them user-friendly. Imo this, as well as rumors about Canonical want to make Ubuntu Core the default desktop offering, destroys your point in the context of this discussion.

Do you think I understood you correctly?

Yes that's exactly what I'm talking about.

The expression "during runtime" is used to express a running and/or currently in use system. So, if my device is off, then the expression "during runtime" does not apply. When I'm using the system or even if it's just idling, then the expression "during runtime" does apply. However, it's possible with Btrfs (and more sophisticated technologies) to create a partition/deployment/image on your disk that's currently not running nor in use and which has some changes compared to your running system. Then, once again, the expression "during runtime" does not apply.

Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate it. And in this case I think my definition of immutability applies to these "runtime-immutable distros" too.

Only after the (soft-)reboot will I be able to use Emacs; be it through the console/terminal or find it in the app drawer.

Another (but small) confusion point for new users.

The crux of this conversation lies here I believe. Your notion/understanding of an immutable system is probably more correct and more in line with what you'd expect from its name. However, the name "'immutable' distros" is unfortunately not descriptive. Contrary to what you'd expect, it's not a distro that happens to be an immutable system; at least, not in the absolute/complete sense.

I understand it.

And, to be honest, I'm not sure if you answered the bold question.

Idk what to answer. Full or partial immutability, it still creates the same issues I described.

[–] bsergay@discuss.online 1 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Thank you for being patient with me! And thank you for yet another set of clarifications!

Idk if everything can br called "hacks" but mostly yea.

I've used the term 'hacks' a couple of times without properly defining it. My bad. So, I've used it in the context of "doing things the unintended and/or unsupported way".

but idk if GUI apps and extensions can see themes installed in ~/.local

They should.

and how many installation guides tell about that method.

Arch wiki states it and there's no reason (in this case) to assume it won't work. Furthermore, FWIW, the documentation on uBlue does discuss theming.

Idk how it works

Currently, it involves creating your own image :P .

and how simple it is but gtk that.

So, as just mentioned, it's possible. But, it's definitely more cumbersome than placing it in /usr/share/themes.

But we're talking about situation when user-friendly distros become immutable.

Are you referring to distros like Linux Mint, Pop!_OS and Zorin becoming immutable? While it's definitely possible that I've alluded as such, I can't recall it. Nor was I able to find it in my earlier writings. Could you explicitly state what you mean by this and when I've (at least) hinted at this?

but, for example, you said that Fedora expects their immutable options to become mainstream.

If, by becoming mainstream, you mean that over half of Fedora's user base will be using them, then yes.

I know that Fedora and other immutable distros are often recommended for new users now.

If you meant uBlue images with "other immutable distros", then I'm fine with this statement. However, if you meant other immutable distros, then I'd like to know which ones you meant. Furthermore, even Fedora's own images are rarely recommended to new users. Generally, at least from what I've seen, Aurora, Bazzite and Bluefin (all three being uBlue image) are mentioned in these conversation. And, IMO, rightfully so.

This means that the ones that recommend them consider them user-friendly. Imo this, as well as rumors about Canonical want to make Ubuntu Core the default desktop offering, destroys your point in the context of this discussion.

Sorry. I lost you here. My bad. What's my point in the context of this discussion?

Another (but small) confusion point for new users.

At least the terminal output makes it very clear that a (soft-)reboot is required. I've honestly never seen anyone mention this, i.e. the need to (soft-)reboot for the changes to take effect, as something that leads to confusion. I do understand the frustration that follows from the act of (soft-)rebooting though :P .

Thanks once again for another lovely set of clarifications! Thank you in advance!

[–] GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Tbh I am not sure anymore if you're being serious in this discussion or just trolling because I explained some things very clearly but you still misunderstand them a lot. I'm not willing to continue this. I apologize if I'm not right but I have to stay away from trolls and other kinds of evil people.

[–] bsergay@discuss.online 1 points 4 months ago

My apologies for being persistent; I'm just very much saddened that the IMO great conversation abruptly ended when it was so close to resolution. Regardless, this will be my last attempt at engaging in hopes of continuing the earlier conversation. However, full disclosure, if you don't respond, then I will leave you with a final message in which I will lay out what I got from this conversation and my overall view in regards to how it went etc.

So, without further a due.

I would like to cut the chase and be very direct:

Finally, we've come to a common ground on what an 'immutable' distro even is. However, it's still unclear why the perceived inconveniences/difficulties are not merely related to implementation. Like, for all we know, in some future implementation of an 'immutable' distro, you could run whatever command you run to place your themes in /usr/share/themes, (soft-)reboot and find the theme in the designated folder. To me, it seems, as if you dismiss this possibility. If this is correct, why do you think that's the case? Isn't there more reason to be hopeful considering the mere fact that we're currently able to apply tons of customization that were previously inconceivable?
You accuse the complete industry for misunderstanding and misusing 'immutable' distros. While, simultaneously, relying only on very basic second-hand information for your views on 'immutable' distros. Is this sensible to you?
It seems as if you're not open to consider many other possible benefits that come with 'immutable' distros. The most recent addition/example of this would be openSUSE going in the direction of an OOTB measured boot with their openSUSE Aeon. Like, how did you even perceive this and did it make you rethink the possible benefits? Do you think it's conceivable that other people might have legit reasons for preferring 'immutable' distros that go beyond what you had previously described?

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