I'm assuming "you" in this case is the general "you", because I absolutely do hate him for that as well. Yeah, Joe is a neoliberal capitalist, but nobody doing genocide denial on his behalf is going to be worried about that charge.

You point out that they're genocide deniers and you get the person who responded to me fretting about whether we should really call it a genocide. You know, doing genocide denial, because people who have painted themselves into that corner aren't going to stop doing genocide denial, they'll keep showing you who they really are. That's damning to anyone who's really paying attention.

[–] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Actually I'm just pointing out that you're complaining about something that won't change. You can complain about Biden being a capitalist but every final presidential candidate has been a capitalist for I don't even know for how many decades. You're complaining into the void because unless the system itself changes there's no chance to have a socialist president.

Similarly you're complaining about Biden supporting genocide but the alternative, Trump, has pretty much said he will go gloves off and give Israel whatever they need. In fact you probably couldn't find a president in the last 20 years who wouldn't be supporting Israel. It's not a specific president or presidential candidate that is supporting genocide, it's the entire system. The only thing you realistically accomplish by complaining about Biden is sowing division.

As for the "genocide deniers", well some people are just dumb and we have to accept that.

[–] Excrubulent -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Actually I’m just pointing out that you’re complaining about something that won’t change.

The only thing you realistically accomplish by complaining about Biden is sowing division.

I don't know about that, I think political possibility goes beyond who will be convinced to change their vote because you told people to stop complaining about Biden.

Like for instance, you acknowledging that the US is going to do genocide no matter what seems like a pretty damning thing to say, no? Seems like something worth saying. Seems like maybe we should condemn people who do genocide, or are willing to helm a nation that will make them complicit in genocide no matter what, because those are people that are going to do a genocide. Seems like maybe getting people on board with a system change involves pointing out that it is an inexorable genocide machine. And if that's what it takes to stop the genocides - and you seem to agree with me on this - then maybe we should, I don't know, talk about it?

Pretending that the entire value in discussing genocide starts and ends with who will be elected president is pretty minimising to the importance of the, you know, genocide. Seems like a kind of genocide denial to me.

As for the “genocide deniers”, well some people are just dumb and we have to accept that.

I'm yet to find a comment section that isn't full of you fuckers.

I think if you think you need to do this to get someone elected, that's actually counterproductive. Like maybe people associating Biden with genocide denial is going to make it harder for them to hold their nose and vote strategically like you want. It's very hard to imagine the voter who would care about the genocide and yet be fooled into voting for Biden because people kept his genocide support on the down-low. Seems like you're cutting off little pieces of your soul for the sake of a strategy that isn't going to really work, unless you've got an A-to-B for me on how telling people to stop complaining about Biden's genocide support helps him win election.

[–] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I’m yet to find a comment section that isn’t full of you fuckers.

I'm going to start from here because this is how you show how disingenuous you are. I straight up said I don't agree with the genocide deniers and what do you do? You still lump me in with them. Your entire mindset here is "If they don't agree with me they must be genocide deniers". Fuck off with that shit.

I don’t know about that, I think political possibility goes beyond who will be convinced to change their vote because you told people to stop complaining about Biden.

Like for instance, you acknowledging that the US is going to do genocide no matter what seems like a pretty damning thing to say, no? Seems like something worth saying. Seems like maybe we should condemn people who do genocide, or are willing to helm a nation that will make them complicit in genocide no matter what, because those are people that are going to do a genocide.

Political possibilities goes beyond when you stop complaining about a part of the problem and start criticizing the problem as a whole. Biden is only a part of the problem, the real problem is that the majority political landscape of US supports Israel. You can't even get a real presidential candidate who would oppose Israel because it would go against the party line. And yet you're convinced it's Biden you should be complaining about.

Seems like maybe getting people on board with a system change involves pointing out that it is an inexorable genocide machine. And if that’s what it takes to stop the genocides - and you seem to agree with me on this - then maybe we should, I don’t know, talk about it?

Which is why you should talk about all the politicians supporting the genocide and not just focus on one. Why aren't you complaining about Trump? Why aren't you complaining about Mitch McConnell or Chuck Schumer? Why aren't you complaining about everyone in congress who voted to aid Israel? Why is it that you only complain about Biden?

I think if you think you need to do this to get someone elected, that’s actually counterproductive. Like maybe people associating Biden with genocide denial is going to make it harder for them to hold their nose and vote strategically like you want. It’s very hard to imagine the voter who would care about the genocide and yet be fooled into voting for Biden because people kept his genocide support on the down-low. Seems like you’re cutting off little pieces of your soul for the sake of a strategy that isn’t going to really work, unless you’ve got an A-to-B for me on how telling people to stop complaining about Biden’s genocide support helps him win election.

It's not about getting Biden elected, it's about making sure Trump does not get elected. That's what your elections have always been about, voting against the guy you hate more. If you don't vote for Biden you're indirectly voting for Trump because the system boils down to you either get Biden or you get Trump. And it doesn't matter who gets elected, America will still support genocide. This vote isn't about genocide, it's about whether American will get a fascist leader or not. You can sit on your high horse and talk about how people are cutting off pieces of their soul "for strategy", but don't be surprised when genocide continues and you get fascism shoved down your throat.

[–] Excrubulent -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Your entire mindset here is “If they don’t agree with me they must be genocide deniers”.

I explained how you were doing genocide denial. You said that complaining about Biden is only "sowing division". So that means that we shouldn't criticise him for his genocide. Denying that a genocide should be criticised on its own merits is a form of genocide denial. Not all genocide denial is "this genocide didn't happen". In fact most of it isn't. Most of it is politically motivated muddying of the waters, like what you did.

And yet you’re convinced it’s Biden you should be complaining about.

Because he is the president and the person in the greatest position of power to do something about it, and yet he refuses.

Why aren’t you complaining about Trump? Why aren’t you complaining about [whatabout whatabout whatabout]

Because none of those people is currently the US president.

Also, the original comment I replied to was about how people are just complaining that Biden is "old". I was pointing out that this person was clearly deliberately avoiding the main criticism, which is of course the genocide.

It’s not about getting Biden elected, it’s about making sure Trump does not get elected.

That's just the same thing said two ways. Most people who vote for Trump don't like him much either, they just think they have to get Biden out. This is how the two-party system captures your political imagination and makes you police other people to tell them not to criticise your candidate. You've fallen for its trap.

And the idea that nothing can be changed without system change is actually false. Popular opposition has won basically all the victories worth noting in liberal democracies. They weren't handed down from the legislature, they were fought for from the bottom up. But if people won't stand up and full-throated condemn the one person most responsible for the current iteration of this genocide, then he won't feel any pressure to do anything about it.

And if he doesn't stop his genocide support - for real, not just a token "hey now jack stop that" - then I won't be surprised when he loses to Trump, because he chose to support fascism overseas and thus willingly lost to fascism at home.

[–] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You can sit on your high horse and talk about how people are cutting off pieces of their soul “for strategy”, but don’t be surprised when genocide continues and you get fascism shoved down your throat.

[–] Excrubulent -2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

And if he doesn’t stop his genocide support - for real, not just a token “hey now jack stop that” - then I won’t be surprised when he loses to Trump, because he chose to support fascism overseas and thus willingly lost to fascism at home.

It's fascinating how you'll continually blame the people calling out genocide support from the white house for them losing, but you won't blame their genocide support for them losing.

Almost like you're not that interested in opposing the genocide.

Almost like you're doing... genocide denial.

[–] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

I’m going to start from here because this is how you show how disingenuous you are. I straight up said I don’t agree with the genocide deniers and what do you do? You still lump me in with them. Your entire mindset here is “If they don’t agree with me they must be genocide deniers”. Fuck off with that shit.

You don't even try to understand what I'm saying, all you see is that I don't agree with you and so you mental gymnastic yourself into believing I'm doing genocide denial. Once again, fuck off with that shit.

Go on man, shut me up. Retell my point back to me.

[–] Excrubulent -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I told you multiple times how it was genocide denial. I explained the how of it. You have failed to even acknowledge that let alone respond to it.

I guess it's hard to face the fact that you're doing genocide denial, so the only thing you can do is pretend I'm being disingenuous. Funny thing is, even if I'm being disingenuous that doesn't make you not a genocide denier.

If you want to explain how that's wrong you need to respond to the argument, but you're not doing that.

[–] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

As if to prove my point... All you had to do was tell me the argument I made and all you did was "This is how it's genocide denial". It's exactly what I said you do.

[–] Excrubulent -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I honestly have no idea what you're saying here. Is this what 'retell my point back to me" was about? You want me to explain how you're doing genocide denial, again? A fourth time? I'll copy-paste the three different ways I've tried to explain it and which you have ignored, and then we're done here if you keep ignoring it.

I explained how you were doing genocide denial. You said that complaining about Biden is only “sowing division”. So that means that we shouldn’t criticise him for his genocide. Denying that a genocide should be criticised on its own merits is a form of genocide denial. Not all genocide denial is “this genocide didn’t happen”. In fact most of it isn’t. Most of it is politically motivated muddying of the waters, like what you did.

Pretending that the entire value in discussing genocide starts and ends with who will be elected president is pretty minimising to the importance of the, you know, genocide. Seems like a kind of genocide denial to me.

Edit 3: The other person arguing is also doing genocide denial, but the oblique kind where you pretend that the only reason to criticise a sitting US president engaging in genocide is because you want him to lose an election. Almost like they’re denying that we should hold people accountable for genocide on its own merits. That is, and I cannot stress this enough, genocide denial.