this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (31 children)

Don't really agree with this. If you look at it on an individual level, there's a case for it, but on a social level, it's dangerous. Individualist societies look for individual solutions even if the problem is social. There are problems that can't be solved with any sort of medication, therapy, etc, because the cause of the problem isn't with the individual. It's impossible to know for sure if any kind of social change would fix her problems, but if suicide is simply the go-to answer when such a problem is encountered, then we will never know. And once this becomes normalized and people start accepting it as a viable solution, then it's going to be a lot harder to materially improve things for people in these situations. Often it's only when people see that there is no individualist solution that they start thinking in terms of systemic changes, and if there's any kind of "solution," no matter how horrid it is, they'll turn to that first. I don't want to create a future where, "I've tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit," is met with a polite and friendly, "Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?"

Suicide is violence. Self-harm is harm. It's nonsense to describe a process that kills you as "safe." I understand that many people view it terms of rights or personal wills because those are prevailing ways to look at things, in individualist cultures. But life is inherently valuable and if someone thinks otherwise about their own, then they are wrong. I would make an exception for someone with severe, incurable physical pain, but while mental pain is just as real and valid as physical pain, the way it functions is more complex, and so I'm skeptical that it could be declared "incurable" to a sufficient standard, especially if solutions aren't limited to the individual level.

The fact is that we ought to be striving to accommodate as widely diverse minds as possible. Both because it's the right thing to do, and because diversity is valuable, and people who see things differently may notice or understand things that others don't. If the diversity of minds starts to narrow, I'm concerned that it will continue to narrow until neurodiverse people are effectively eliminated from society, or be isolated without community, as more and more pressure builds against anyone who doesn't fit the mold of a productive worker.

[–] hikaru755@feddit.de 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I don't want to create a future where, "I've tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit," is met with a polite and friendly, "Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?"

Are you for real? This kind of thing is a last resort that nobody is going to just outright suggest unprompted to a suffering person, unless that person asks for it themselves. No matter how "normalized" suicide might become, it's never gonna be something doctors will want to recommend. That's just... Why would you even think that's what's gonna happen

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] hikaru755@feddit.de 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

...and did you notice how everyone was outraged by that? That incident was not an issue with assisted suicide being available, that was an issue with fucked up systems withholding existing alternatives and a tone-deaf case worker (who is not a doctor) handling impersonal communications. Maybe it's also an issue with this kind of thing being able to be decided by a government worker instead of medical and psychological professionals. But definitely nothing about this would have been made better by assisted suicide not being generally available for people who legitimately want it, except the actual problem wouldn't have been put into the spotlight like this.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You're the one that specified doctors, not me. I just said I don't want to create a future where anyone thinks it's ok or normal to recommend suicide to people. You dismissed my fears as unrealistic, and then I presented evidence that it's not just a far off possibility, but something that's actually happened. Many people may find that story outrageous now, but it's clearly pushing things in a direction such that in 20 years, who's to say how people will react.

But definitely nothing about this would have been made better by assisted suicide not being generally available for people who legitimately want it, except the actual problem wouldn’t have been put into the spotlight like this.

Literally the whole thing would not have happened without the policy.

[–] hikaru755@feddit.de 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

where anyone thinks it's ok or normal to recommend suicide to people

Except that's already happening even without it being normalized, there have always been assholes that are gonna tell people to kill themselves, especially if they've never seen the person they're talking to before. I don't see how this is any different.

Literally the whole thing would not have happened without the policy.

It also wouldn't have happened if a fucked up system wasn't withholding actual, reasonable alternatives that the person was clearly asking for. That's my point. Let's fix the actual problems, rather than try to silence the symptoms.

[–] Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 5 months ago

Bringing up gamers telling each other to kill themselves (sometimes genuinely, although they wouldn't admit they were actually that angry) is not the gotcha you think it is.

Why dont you engage with what the person you are replying to is actually saying instead of grasping at straws.

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