763
Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
763 points (94.5% liked)
politics
19097 readers
4022 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
It's a primary...
What they're hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions don't follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesn't depress turnout and let's trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden "most progressive president yet" will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters aren't Republican voters. Fear isn't enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because they're statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize it's not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. They're funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
And as we've seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn't even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That's exactly the "strong man" bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden's handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that's just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One's a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, that's something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since it's something previous administrations wouldn't have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didn't care or didn't listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldn't vote for trump either.. but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that's still better odds
Then you simply didn't pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldn't have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i don't know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy's a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he's totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
i'm not defending trump i'm just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. it's unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they can't just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it's getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that's a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn't support Ukraine. It's really no secret that he's in Russia's pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something he's very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, I'm absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while it's still raging.
Then these people are fucking stupid and don't realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
that's what i'm saying. he would drop us's support of the war, likely ending the war sooner. so he's not necessarily a war monger. i don't know for a fact he would support israel's war in gaza. maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't i don't know.
we have already lost democracy if we have no choice but to vote for someone. either way you don't really have a choice. see what i mean? trump and biden are different pathways to the same end game. death of democracy
Well yes, in a conflict where he gets orders from Putin to not help, he of course doesn't go to war. But his general attitude to war really isn't a secret. That dude nearly started a war with Iran in his first term for example.
No! One candidate has already tried to overthrow an election he lost, the other didn't and has been very outspoken for his support of democracy. If that's really your take away from that then I really have no idea what you did in the last decade. You certainly didn't payed attention to what's going on.
it's not because he gets orders from putin. it's because he sees the writing on the wall that the war is over and he's trying to get on the right side of history. the war will inevitably end with russia seizing territory. once that happens he can say "i told you so" and seem like he's a peacemaker.
and he can say "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars on ukraine when they are going to lose anyway?" or "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars while americans are struggling to make ends meet"? or "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars supporting a war that is actively raising inflation across the globe, hurting americans?"
he doesn't actually give a shit one way or the other - trump has no ideals or principles. but he's betting that the public opinion against the war will sour soon. and if you look at the polls, that's what is happening. americans are slowly losing their appetite for the ukraine war (republicans at a faster rate, but we're seeing democrats too get war fatigue)
his anti-war stance is one of political opportunism. other politicians would do the same if they weren't beholden to lockheed martin and friends. trump doesn't give a shit about anyone and is willing to throw anyone under the bus and that works to his advantage
the assassination of Soleimani was honestly criminal and stupid and basically ruined any chances for rapprochement with Iran and to top it off Trump killed the Iran nuclear deal. so yeah, i understand and agree with you here
but compare and contrast that situation with what's going on right now. we're 100x closer to war with Iran than we were under Trump. we've intercepted hundreds of missiles and missiles from iranian backed regimes. americans have already died from these attacks. we had to send two aircraft carriers to the middle east - something we didn't even do during the invasion of Iraq
i'm not denying that he tried to overthrow the election.
but what is the difference to me if I can't vote versus I can only vote for one guy? there's no functional difference. either way, i have no voice. in that case, maybe it's better it be trump because it's more honest. we're becoming an oligarchic dictatorship regardless of who we elect
Not sure if you're just so damn cynical or are knowingly are pushing Russian propaganda.
But damn dude, Trump and quite a few top Republicans is balls deep into Russia's pockets. That's the reason that they suddenly are actively taking Russia's point of view. Something that 20 years ago never would have been possible.
And sorry, but if you think that the US becoming a full fledged theocratic oligarchic dictatorship than what it is right now then you really didn't think through what that would mean to you and those you love. Their plans regarding abortion and pregnancy prevention alone should be more than enough to point you in the right direction.
I'll admit I am pretty cynical but I have arrived at my positions with reason and lots of reading and analysis. It's not out of the blue and it's not partisan. I don't really care about neither Trump Biden or Russia. I was born in South America in the 90s and grew up in the US as an illegal immigrant and became legal under Trump (citizen now under Biden). I have a different experience of this country compared to you. I also have exposure to different language media that isn't as heavily manipulated on certain topics and exposure to different geopolitical viewpoints.
I think that Putin is a naturally ally for Trump because they are similar strongman leaders. But I do not think that Trump and Co. are beholden to Russia like you claim. Remember that Trump was willing to send weapons to Ukraine that Obama was not - out of fears of potentially angering Russia.
It was Paul Manafort for example who was involved in Ukraine collecting and spending millions of dollars of taxpayer money in order to influence Ukrainian democracy away from Russia and towards the US. A Trump ally.
There's a lot more to this discussion I can share with you if you're curious.
As for your last part - I support abortion and think it's absurd that we are going backwards in time and repealing something we figured out in 1974.
But tell me honestly man - do you believe if Biden were to be elected (which at this point is becoming increasingly unlikely if you are watching the polls) - do you think he will manage to bring abortion back?
Well I don't have your view on GOP/Putin and their relationship to Russia. I think it's very obvious why after hacking both the Democrat and GOP mail servers only the Democrat one were leaked. There has to be quite some juicy stuff the Russian now hold over several major GOP players.
Abortion still is around for a lot of states. So at the very least I'm certain that Biden and hopefully a Democrat majority in the Senat will prevent it being banned in the whole country. I mean the Republicans really aren't silent about their plans and that should be important to any sane person. If they get another Trump turn, it will get a lot worse for the US than it ever could under Biden.
because Russia wants Trump to win. That doesn't mean Trump is a Russian agent or somehow in Putin's pocket. It just means that Russia believes Trump at the helm of the US puts Russia in a better geopolitical situation. The logic probably being that Trump is chaotic and a more chaotic US is a weaker US - therefore better for Russia.
Again, how do you reconcile your views with the fact that Paul Manafort was intimately involved with the Ukrainian revolution that put a pro-western government in power? Or that Trump was more willing to send weapons to Ukraine than the Democratic president before him?
As for abortion, I don't think Trump would initiate a country-wide ban either. That would be extremely unpopular and Trump seems to be trying recently to distance himself from these types of extremist bans.
I don't think there will be any change in the abortion issue on the federal level in the next 4 years regardless of if Biden or Trump is in power.
I think obviously Trump set up the current state of affairs by nominating the 3 judges, therefore giving the Supreme Court to the conservatives. So he's more responsible for the nationwide abortion bans than virtually any other person in this country.
Please understand I hate Trump. I've hated him since 2016 when he said the famous "murderers, rapists, etc" line. I just equally hate Biden because he's a hypocrite and in many issues he is not fundamentally different in a practical sense.
Why didn't they push through an abortion bill in congress when the Dems had a majority? Why did Biden continue using Trump's COVID loopholes to deny people seeking asylum at the border? Why did Biden promise to make Saudi Arabia a pariah state for chopping up a journalist and instead of doing that, he signed billion dollar arms deals? Why did Biden hug Netanyahu right after they started dropping bombs on Palestinian civilians? Why did Biden continue Trump's policies of sanctions and import tariffs on China? Why did Biden promise to halt the "Wall tm" expansion and instead expanded it after doing a photo shoot at the border? Why did Biden pretend like Navalny is a hero when he literally organized and marched with neo-nazis in Moscow?
I can go on and on and on. At this point I'm totally disillusioned with any establishment Democrat.
It effectively proves to Democrats that if they support Genocide like Republicans they will never win.
If Democrats want to bend over backwards to appeal to a small minority of AIPAC voters, they will lose all their other voters.
Oh, it has nothing to do with AIPAC VOTERS. It's ALL about AIPAC DONORS.
Big difference...
It's both. Dems want to appeal to voters that are brainwashed by AIPAC.
There is also a Zionist minority in America that will only vote for a Zionist president and Dems are so afraid to lose them that they will throw away every single moral value they have to appeal to them.
But if the Dems aren't shown that they will lose more voters by kneeling for AIPAC than they will gain, the Dems will not be incentivized to clean up their act. In fact Dems will only become more extreme in their Zionism because they know that people will keep voting for AIPAC anyways.
Biden still has a shot to win voters back by actually managing to get recognition for a Palestinian state implemented. But he's just dancing around that subject as long as possible and it doesn't look like he's serious in any way.
There are more AIPAC dollars than there are AIPAC voters, but then I guess that's always the inherent problem with our political system:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/12/pro-israel-pacs-poised-to-spend-big-to-unseat-progressive-members-of-congress-in-2024-election-cycle
https://thepoliticswatcher.com/pages/articles/congress/2023/12/7/aipac-donations-congress-members-unveiling-influence
The top three israeli money recipients being Democrats, and the top being Biden, is not a great argument to vote Democrat though.
If Biden tanks Israel where do you think that money is going to go?
Biden is the most willing to sell out to israel. Which is why Biden is getting that money. I must say that the Dems are very cheap too, they sell their souls for a few million dollars.
"If I don't do it somebody else will" is the default excuse for any crime. This excuse only works if enough people keep believing in it.
“Let’s (literally) destroy democracy so we might be able to save the Democratic Party”.
Did you miss all the great speeches at CPAC?
Do you not understand what "primary" means?
A meaningless formality since 2012.
"Let's literally commit Genocide so Biden doesn't have to run another 4 years".
Trumps rise to power is a direct consequence of the DNC sabotaging every attempt of real progressives like Bernie that could have actually fixed issues.
It creates both voter apathy and it enables right-wingers to point to the deteriorated standards of living under Biden and blame Biden for it (and biden pulls out another 15 Billion for israel) (cue someone linking me how people working 3 jobs is good for unemployment)
If Biden wins now the unrest and support for right-wing authoritarianism will only grow.
2016
If bad Dems keep winning the right will only grow stronger.
If Biden wins this time #Hitler2028 is a plausible reality as Biden is doing nothing to address any real problems and only gradually making things worse. Further bolstering Republicans.
The only way I see Biden winning this election is a) Trump has a stroke B) they throw Trump in jail
The polls are clear, people are growing increasingly tired of Biden. Trump was one of the most unpopular presidents in history - and Biden is even more unpopular.
We're fucked either way, like you said. Biden wins and the unrest is delayed and will blow up even stronger later on. Put Trump in jail and that unrest will be amplified tenfold. Look what happened when Hitler got out of jail (or Lula in Brazil for a more recent example) If Bifen loses, we of course have our proto-fascist.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP, even when the big donors are directly against him and his perseverance and dedication to do literally anything in his power to win.
I don't know how he still has such a fire inside him at his age.
He only beat Haley 60-40 in SC. Media talks about his big primary wins, but they're not really showing a politician that has really consolidated his party, especially as a virtual incumbent. He's probably the only Republican Biden could beat, and Biden is conversely the only Democrat Trump could beat. Yet on we march to a repeat general election between two candidates most people don't like.
to be fair, that's probably one of the worst performing states for him because it's Haley's home state
Look at what happened at the primary in Nevada. He was removed from the ballot so he told his supporters to not go out and vote. What happened? Over 60% voted "none of these candidates"
Nikki Haley lost to "none of these candidates"
if you look at the polls for the republican primary: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-r/2024/national/
trump is >75%
that's domination, especially considering a) desantis got more funding AND was polling better at the start of the campaign season and b) nikki haley picked up that funding after desantis dropped out
the establishment republicans are desperate to get rid of trump but he's like a tick that won't go away
He wasn't removed from the ballot, he chose to remove himself because the party rules said candidates had to do that to compete in the caucus that would actually choose electors. "None of the above" were just Trump votes, which falls in line with a candidate who should be doing better for his name recognition and history.
He can be solidly above 50%, assuring a primary win, and still not be demonstrating that he's consolidated his party. He won his 2020 primaries with 94% of the vote.