It's very simple. Our two countries have a reciprocal extradition treaty. This means, if someone is a wanted criminal in our country, we can ask the US government to detain and deport this person so they can stand trial in our country. The same is true of the US. Whether or not he actually committed a crime HERE is irrelevant: He is a wanted criminal in the US, and they asked our government to detain and deport him. Note he is still in NZ.

I am not talking about that. Would the NZ police raid your house and arrest you if China accused you of a crime? We know they would if the USA accused you of a crime.

We don't have an extradition treaty with China. We do with the US. This isn't hard to understand.

Yes I am. Being a democracy has nothing to do with anything.

Are you suggesting that a country that has minorities in concentration camps, has waged cultural war on others, actively exploits poor nations, tracks and watches their entire population, domestically and abroad, locks up political opponents, disappears people critical to the government, detains foreign citizens and actively tries to subvert democracy in other countries is as bad as the US?

If you are you are either naive or an idiot. I can't quite figure out which.

They could kill you with a drone strike.

Happens all the time does it? I must have missed all those drone strikes in NZ, the UK and the EU.

The USA will kill you right here if they want.

When has that ever happened here?

LOL. You really drank a lot of right wing kool aid if you believe Kim Dotcom wa s a massive international criminal.

Man you have wildly missed the mark here. I never said I think he deserves to be a criminal, only that he is. He IS a massive international criminal because he has, no matter how dumb they are, broken many international laws.

All this is such a stupid argument anyway, because EVEN IF the US is so much worse than China, MY POINT STILL STANDS. I am allowed to not want China to track me through my phone, even if I allow the US to do it (as you claim).

I honestly have no idea what your problem is.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

It’s very simple. Our two countries have a reciprocal extradition treaty.

Does an extradition treaty dictate that an armed raid take place?
Can China extradite me because I broke Chinese law?

If the answer to 2. is no then I have more to worry about the US than China.

We don’t have an extradition treaty with China. We do with the US. This isn’t hard to understand.

So what you saying is that I have nothing to worry about when it comes to China coming after me because I broke Chinese laws.

Are you suggesting that a country that has minorities in concentration camps, has waged cultural war on others, actively exploits poor nations, tracks and watches their entire population, domestically and abroad, locks up political opponents, disappears people critical to the government, detains foreign citizens and actively tries to subvert democracy in other countries is as bad as the US?

Oh that was a surprise. I was sure you were going to say "as bad as China" at the end of that.

Happens all the time does it?

yes it does.

I must have missed all those drone strikes in NZ, the UK and the EU.

They do what they call "extraordinary renditions" in those countries. The US agents break down your door, put a bag over your head and ship you off to some island to be tortured.

When has that ever happened here?

Hasn't happened here yet that we know of. But it has happened in many other countries.

Man you have wildly missed the mark here. I never said I think he deserves to be a criminal, only that he is. He IS a massive international criminal because he has, no matter how dumb they are, broken many international laws.

No he is not a massive international criminal. No other nation has charges against him. But I get it you completely swallowed the right wing propaganda and think he is some sort of an international criminal mastermind who totally deserved to get raided.

All this is such a stupid argument anyway, because EVEN IF the US is so much worse than China, MY POINT STILL STANDS. I am allowed to not want China to track me through my phone, even if I allow the US to do it (as you claim).

You are allowed to do whatever you want no matter how racist or irrational it is. You are convinced the Chinese are going to get you, grab you and make you a prisoner or something and you believe the USA would never do anything like that to a NZ citizen despite the fact that the USA has done that and you told me we don't have an extradition treaty with China.

I mean you sound like raving paranoid maniac.

I honestly have no idea what your problem is.

Right back at you. Why do you praise the USA so highly?

[–] Rangelus@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If the answer to 2. is no then I have more to worry about the US than China.

I travel to Asia fairly regularly. Am I being irrational? I never said you should stop using Chinese phones, only that I don't want to use them.

So what you saying is that I have nothing to worry about when it comes to China coming after me because I broke Chinese laws.

As above. I never said you had to worry, only that I don't want to. Then you came along trying to convince me that I'm wrong.

Oh that was a surprise. I was sure you were going to say “as bad as China” at the end of that.

No, because the US does not do all of that.

yes it does.

Lol, sure mate. Ok.

They do what they call “extraordinary renditions” in those countries. The US agents break down your door, put a bag over your head and ship you off to some island to be tortured.

You need to stop watching spy movies as if they were documentaries.

No he is not a massive international criminal. No other nation has charges against him. But I get it you completely swallowed the right wing propaganda and think he is some sort of an international criminal mastermind who totally deserved to get raided.

I never said I thought he deserved to be raided. I only said that, by law, the US is allowed to seek extradition to their country to stand trial. I never said I thought he should be charged with anything, or made any judgement call on the situation at all. Oh, and he was charged in Germany, so yes, he is international.

I love that you think I'm right wing.

You are allowed to do whatever you want no matter how racist or irrational it is. You are convinced the Chinese are going to get you, grab you and make you a prisoner or something and you believe the USA would never do anything like that to a NZ citizen despite the fact that the USA has done that and you told me we don’t have an extradition treaty with China.

I said none of those things, stop making shit up. I said "I don't trust the Chinese government to not spy on me so I don't use their phones". This makes no mention of the US, or any of the other shit you're on about. I can distrust more than one government. However, I have plenty of evidence, and first hand experience, of China's spying program. Much less so the US.

I mean you sound like raving paranoid maniac.

Sure mate. Also, "racist" lol.

Right back at you. Why do you praise the USA so highly?

When have I praised the US? Seriously, what the fuck do you think I've been saying?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I travel to Asia fairly regularly. Am I being irrational?

Asia is a big place. Are you saying everyplace in Asia is under the control of the Chinese government or something? Are you afraid that if you travel to Japan or India or Vietnam or Thailand that Chinese agents are going to grab you?

Since you specifically said Asia and not China I am guessing you actually do think that and yes that makes you highly irrational. In fact I would say pretty fucking crazy.

s above. I never said you had to worry, only that I don’t want to.

But you live in NZ and you don't have to worry either.

No, because the US does not do all of that.

All of that has been documented being done by the US. Honestly it looks like you only get your news from some weird facebook bubble where everybody is convinced the yellow menace is out to get them.

You need to stop watching spy movies as if they were documentaries

Wow. You really are ignorant aren't you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#:~:text=Extraordinary%20rendition%20is%20a%20euphemism,transfer%20to%20a%20third%20state.

I love that you think I’m right wing.

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck and all that.

However, I have plenty of evidence, and first hand experience, of China’s spying program. Much less so the US.

That's only because you are wilfully ignorant.

[–] Rangelus@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

In fact I would say pretty fucking crazy.

Pot, meet kettle.

But you live in NZ and you don't have to worry either.

I have friends and family in several asian countries and travel regularly in the region. Do not presume to know my situation.

All of that has been documented being done by the US. Honestly it looks like you only get your news from some weird facebook bubble where everybody is convinced the yellow menace is out to get them.

Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about. I feel no need to defend my political stance, but needless to say you are as wrong as is possible to be.

Wow. You really are ignorant aren't you.

I'm well aware of this. You paint it as something that is happened all the time, and could happen to you any moment. But in reality, this practice is greatly reduced if not stopped altogether in many jurisdictions. It also targets suspected Islamic terrorists, not political dissidents.

The same thing happens with China, just not in many western countries so you probably aren't aware of it.

Only one country is likely to do anything I'd a simply badmouth the government. Hint: it isn't the US.

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck and all that.

You are perfectly capable of looking at my post history and seeing for yourself how wrong you are. But of course you won't, because you can't be wrong right?

That's only because you are wilfully ignorant.

Sure mate. That's it.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I have friends and family in several asian countries and travel regularly in the region. Do not presume to know my situation.

Why do you keep saying "asian countries". Do all asians look alike to you or something? Do you think all Asian countries are China or something?

I’m well aware of this.

no you aren't. You denied it happened FFS.

You paint it as something that is happened all the time, and could happen to you any moment.

It has happened a lot and could happen to anybody at anytime. There is no legal process for this. All somebody has to do is to write your name on a piece of paper. There is no judicial oversight for extraordinary renditions.

But in reality, this practice is greatly reduced if not stopped altogether in many jurisdictions. It also targets suspected Islamic terrorists, not political dissidents.

So I should only be worried if I am a muslim or anybody I know is a muslim? You are saying the USA only targets muslims with this? You are wrong. Non muslims and indeed Americans have been rendered.

You are perfectly capable of looking at my post history and seeing for yourself how wrong you are. But of course you won’t, because you can’t be wrong right?

I judge you by what you say to me. You sound like a paranoid delusional MAGA idiot who is incapable of criticising the USA and is convinced China is out to get them.

[–] Rangelus@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Why do you keep saying “asian countries”. Do all asians look alike to you or something? Do you think all Asian countries are China or something?

Because I travel to more than one country, and I don't really feel like I need to specify which. But in case you are interested: Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, and China are all countries I visit semi-regularly.

no you aren’t. You denied it happened FFS.

No I didn't. I said, rather flippantly, "You need to stop watching spy movies as if they were documentaries."

So I should only be worried if I am a muslim or anybody I know is a muslim? You are saying the USA only targets muslims with this? You are wrong. Non muslims and indeed Americans have been rendered.

Look, as I said before, even if you are right and the US is so much worse than China, it does not invalidate my point.

You can go around worrying that the US is going to snatch you up because you said "fuck Obama" a couple of times online. I honestly don't give a shit.

I judge you by what you say to me. You sound like a paranoid delusional MAGA idiot who is incapable of criticising the USA and is convinced China is out to get them.

Lol, ok. Now I know there is no point in further engaging with you. You really are an idiot.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

But in case you are interested: Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, and China are all countries I visit semi-regularly.

And you are convinced that if you travel to Japan or Singapore or Taiwan China is going to snag you right?

No I didn’t. I said, rather flippantly, “You need to stop watching spy movies as if they were documentaries.”

And the point of that wasn't a denial?

You can go around worrying that the US is going to snatch you up because you said “fuck Obama” a couple of times online.

Anybody can be put on a terrorist list for any reason. There is no court oversight.

[–] Rangelus@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

And you are convinced that if you travel to Japan or Singapore or Taiwan China is going to snag you right?

The chance is not 0. Do I think it is likely? No. Do I think it is marginally more likely than the US declaring I'm a terrorist? Yes.

Why? Because the Chinese government does it more than the US. Even if they didn't, even if they were just as bad, or the US was much much worse, how does that invalidate my decision to use another brand of phone when I have that choice?

And the point of that wasn’t a denial?

Do I think it never happens? No. Do I think it will happen to me? No. Do I think China is more likely to? Yes, even if that chance is small.

Again, how does the US being a worse dictatorship than China invalidate my decision to not use a Chinese brand phone? Two things can be bad at once. One bad thing is better than two bad things.

I don't understand how this is so hard for you to understand.

Anybody can be put on a terrorist list for any reason. There is no court oversight.

Your point? If you are trying to argue the US does bad things, I haven't disagreed with you. If you are trying to say that, therefore, China is fine, well, that's just whataboutism pure and simple.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The chance is not 0

The same can be said of the USA.

No. Do I think it is marginally more likely than the US declaring I’m a terrorist? Yes.

Then you are completely delusional.

Why? Because the Chinese government does it more than the US.

Not even close. AFIK there are no documented instances of the Chinese government nabbing people overseas and there are numerous documented instances of the USA doing it.

Again, how does the US being a worse dictatorship than China invalidate my decision to not use a Chinese brand phone?

Because it's irrational and based solely on some weird racist ideology.

Your point?

Your name can go on a terrorist list at any time. Hell you could have the same name as somebody on the terrorist list and you'll get nabbed.

If you are trying to say that, therefore, China is fine, well, that’s just whataboutism pure and simple.

My only point is that you are an insane person who for some reason convinced himself that China is out to get him.

[–] Rangelus@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Then you are completely delusional. If you say so.

Not even close. AFIK there are no documented instances of the Chinese government nabbing people overseas and there are numerous documented instances of the USA doing it. You really don't know what you're talking about.

Because it’s irrational and based solely on some weird racist ideology. No it isn't.

Your name can go on a terrorist list at any time. Hell you could have the same name as somebody on the terrorist list and you’ll get nabbed. Your point? How does this invalidate my decision not to use a Chinese phone?

My only point is that you are an insane person who for some reason convinced himself that China is out to get him. Lol, of course, I'm insane because I don't agree with you.

If you need to think I'm paranoid and racist to feel better about yourself, go right ahead. I couldn't care less.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I mean you are and it has nothing to do with me.

[–] Rangelus@lemmy.nz 1 points 8 months ago

You are welcome to your opinion, it's a free country after all.