this post was submitted on 15 Feb 2024
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That argument goes both ways. "Nader would have won if progressives hadn't handed the election to the Republicans by throwing their votes away on Gore." Same is true for 2016 with Bernie and Clinton.
It really doesn’t go both ways. The winning presidential candidate needs to get the most votes, and most US voters are not progressive. They’re moderate, or indifferent.
I don’t know how you could say that about HRC and Sanders. That’s not even a hypothetical: they literally had a head to head match where, to my huge disappointment, HRC won. Protesting HRC helped elect Trump, and obviously that hasn’t been good for progressive interests or democracy.
Your argument makes no sense.
You acknowledge progressives won't vote for moderates. But what makes you think moderates won't vote for progressives if they don't have a choice?
Do you really believe the people who voted for Clinton wouldn't have voted for Sanders in the general? If so, then shouldn't the blame be on them too? If not, then can you admit you're wrong?
I’ve read your comment a few times but I’m having a genuinely hard time parsing your point.
The person I’m responding to was saying that Nader could have won if progressives voted for him instead of Gore. I pointed out that presidential candidates need a broad coalition of voters to get enough votes, not just far left progressives.
You seem to be making a totally different argument. You claim that if Nader was the only choice, then Democratic leaning moderates would have voted for him.
I don’t mean to be rude, but what is the point of this thought experiment? Nader wasn’t the only choice. Moreover, US politics in 2000 was significantly less polarized: MANY Gore voters would have definitely voted for Bush, who campaigned under “compassionate conservatism” and was seen as a moderate, over the farthest left candidate, Nader.
If Sanders had won the nomination, I think he would have kicked ass against Trump, but Sanders sadly lost. I’m trying to understand your last line: are you asking if I would blame HRC supporters for refusing to vote for Sanders in the general and allowing a fascist corrupt dictator in? Uh, yes. Obviously I would blame them. That precisely aligns with everything I’ve said.
Nah, they reiterated my point pretty well. You can't claim that "candidate 'A' is the correct choice because of their broad appeal" when they wind up losing the election. Obviously, they didn't have the most appeal. The attitude that "I picked the right person and it's everyone else's fault they didn't win" is absurd. Anybody can make that argument about any candidate and be just as equally 'correct.'
That's not what you said in the comment I responded to. You claimed that Nader could have won if progressives had voted for him instead of Gore, but there aren't enough progressive votes.
Voting in a FPTP two party system is a coordination game, one where it is mathematically impossible for third parties to win. Pretending otherwise is sadly delusional.
It's like you're trying to decide which building to buy as a group to start co-op housing. Almost everyone prefers building A, but you prefer building B. If you all don't compromise, then there is not enough money and you're all homeless. In a democracy, it is obviously more fair if you compromise than everyone else compromises. You either don't believe in democracy, or you're happy with things never getting better.
I said "that argument goes both ways" meaning "my candidate would have won if X, Y, and Z happened" is always valid regardless of the candidate.
You can't rewrite the past, so you're inventing a hypothetical/fictional scenario based on your opinion. In a fictional scenario, anything is possible. Your argument was "if more people voted for Gore, he would have won" and I countered with "if more people voted for Nader, he would have won." You can't claim Gore was the best choice because the best choice is the one who wins the election.
What a joke. The "you" here is the entire American public while "everyone else" is a small handful of wealthy, powerful individuals.
Can you explain how continuing to elect corporate Democrats makes things better? Are we better now than 10 years ago? Are we better than we were 20 years ago? There's obviously a quality of life trend here, and it hasn't trended up in quite a long time. You'll predictably place the blame solely on Republicans even though Democrats make up 50% of that equation. Republicans sure don't seem to have the same issue passing their legislation. Why do you think that is?
You got 3 upvotes within minutes after you posted on a 2 day old post? And I got 3 downvotes at the same time? You're pathetic.
Lmao what does that have to do with me? Upvotes don't mean anything on lemmy and it's a bit pathetic to whine about them. And if you think I'm using multiple accounts to downvote you, consider that many people sort by "new comments" here since lemmy doesn't get the traffic that reddit does.
You ought to change your username though because you're far from open minded.
lol Funny how no one else seems to be voting anywhere else in this thread anymore, except minutes after your comment. It’s embarrassing that you’re doubling down. Sociopathic behavior.
It is pointless arguing with someone so devoted to winning an internet debate. Can’t reason with that.
Sociopathic behavior is sitting and monitoring an entire post's vote tallies to see how your comment is doing. I literally don't give two shits about the vote counts. The fact that you've abandoned your argument to whine about karma is pretty telling.
Ah yes, the real problem is the person calling you out on your BS. What an honest and productive conversation I’m missing out on!