Every so often i start believing all the posts about how Linux really made a lot of progress, and the desktop experience is so much better now, and everything is supported, and i give it another try.
I've got a small intel 13th gen NUC i use as a small server, and for playing movies from. It runs windows 11, but as i want to run some docker containers on it, i thought, why not give Linux a try again, how bad can it be. (after all, i've got multiple raspberry pi's running, and a synology diskstation, and i'm no stranger to ssh'ing into them to manage some stuff)
Downloaded the latest Ubuntu Desktop (23.10), since it's still a highly recommended distro, and started my journey.
First obvious task: connect to my SMB shares on my synology to get access to any media. Tough luck, whatever tool Ubuntu uses for that always tries SMBv1 protocol first, which is disabled on my synology due to security reasons. If i enable it on my synology i get a nice warning that SMBv1 is vulnurable and has been used to perform ransomware attacks, so maybe i'd rather leave it disabled (although i assume that's mostly the case if the port were accessible from the internet, but still). Then i thought "it's probably some setting somewhere to change this", but after further googling, i found an issue that whatever ubuntu is using for SMB needs a patch to not default to SMBv1 to get a list of shares.... Yeah, great start for the oh so secure linux, i'd need to enable a protocol that got used in ransomware attacks over 6 years ago to get everything to work properly... (yeah, i ended up finding how to mount things manually, and then added it to my fstab as a workaround, but wtf)
Then, i installed Kodi, tried to play some content. Noticed that even though i enabled that setting on Kodi, it's not switching to the refreshrate of the video i'm playing. Googling further on that just felt like walking through a tarpit. From the dedicated librelec distro that runs just kodi that has special patches to resolve this, to discussions about X not supporting switching refreshrates, and Kodi having a standalone mode that doesn't use a window manager that should solve it but doesn't, and also finding people with similar woes about HDR. I guess the future of the desktop user is watching stuttering videos with bad color rendition? I'd give more details about what i found if there were any. Try googling it yourself, you'll find so little yet contradictory things...
Not being entirely defeated yet, i thought "i've got this nice GUI on my synology for managing docker containers & images, let's see if i can find something nice on ubuntu", and found dockstation as something i could try. Downloaded the .deb file (since ubuntu is a debian variant it seems), double clicked the file and ... "no app installed for this file"... google around a bit, after some misleading results regarding older ubuntu versions, i found the issue: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/10/install-deb-ubuntu-23-10-no-app-error
Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn't replace it yet. Wouldn't want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?
For real, i see all the Linux love here, and for the headless servers i have here (the raspberries & the synology), i get it. But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I'm missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or... right?
was also heavily wondering this. Most TVs don't change their refresh rate to their content. they just output 1080p 60hz (or whatever) and only do the updates every 24hz and will just double up frames. Expecting to change your output based on the content feels real weird.
if this person has stuttery video, its something else or they have a very niche use case.
Yeah. That's why I asked for some details. That said I think the underlying root of the complaint ("I did cool stuff on Windows, now I'm trying Linux and it can't do my cool stuff, WTF I hate this") is probably pretty valid. I think the solution is, either learn about the cool stuff Linux can do that Windows can't, and start there instead of trying to duplicate your Windows setup, or just stick with what you're already happy with.
If "cool stuff on windows" is going to your file manager and browsing to a network share, and that working, and not having the stable version of the OS suddenly lose its installer for a specific kind of files.... Then yeah, i should probably stick to windows. I can kind of get the refreshrate thingy, although it's still pretty pathetic after all these years. And reading up on HDR (which is 20 years old by now), feels equally pathetic. Yes, i'd like to be able to use my linux desktop to be able to play video files as intended: with the monitor/projector switching to the correct refresh rate (so you don't see a slight stutter whenever the camera pans), and with HDR if applicable.
I made this thread about 5 hours after i installed ubuntu, you guys seem to be avoiding actually knowledging that these are some huge glaring issues that completely ruin the user experience, and be like "but look at the cool stuff linux can do". I know the cool stuff linux can do, i've got a dozen docker containers running on my synology doing home automation/downloading/servers of all kinds/... I just hoped the linux desktop experience would be... at least tolerable and not 5 hours of frustrated googling trying 'advanced things' like... browsing to a network share, installing a package i get when i click on ubuntu/debian on the site of a linux application (and i didn't post the whole ordeal, then installed a tool to install the package, that failed due to some dependency, then installed it via the command line, that then also gave all kinds of errors, which the instructions found perfectly normal), or playing a video file the way it's supposed to be played.
If you really think those 3 above usecases are "cool windows stuff" and "it's unrealistic to expect these from linux", can you please say that explicitly? Browsing to a network share, installing a .deb package supported on a debian based OS, and playing a HDR video file in HDR and at the correct framerate with your display are "unrealistic expectations". The last one you might be able to make a tiny bit of a case for, but the other 2... for real??
I feel like I'm sorta repeating myself here, but you didn't answer the questions from before:
Worked perfectly for me 20 years ago. What was the error message you got, again?
You said later that when you did it via the command line, it didn't work anyway. Which was more or less what I told you might well happen because downloading .debs from the internet is a bad idea.
IDK, man, I'm a little reluctant to continue this because I keep trying to tell you about how you should use Linux and you keep seeming to think that I'm trying to trick you or something. Like, hey I think Rancher might work more simply, what do you think of that? And it's like no that's a trick I want to keep failing to install this other thing!
failed to retrieve share list from server invalid argument
Are you serious? I just googled "is installing deb packages on ubuntu good", from ubuntu.com ( https://ubuntu.com/about/packages#:~:text=%27Deb%27%20packages%20are%20the%20heart,with%20rich%20and%20dynamic%20dependencies. ) :
'Deb' packages are the heart of Ubuntu The 'deb' package format comes from the Debian Linux distribution and is widely considered the best package format for system-level libraries and applications with rich and dynamic dependencies.
If i have to describe gaslighting, i would give this as an example. The websites of linux application offer deb packages mentioning explictly they are for ubuntu. The ubuntu site itself says "Deb packages are the heart of ubuntu". I try to install one, the linux community: "are you stupid? What gave you the idea that downloading a deb package that said it was for ubuntu and trying to install it was a good idea?"
I'm trying to install a package the way the developer says i should, and the distro says is the very heart of the distro. And you find it strange that your replies come across as blaming the user and a bit ridiculous?
All this then says to me is that i should find myself a linux teacher to teach me the arcane linux knowledge, since the most direct documentation of app developers & distro developers is the exact opposite of what i should do?
I'm sorry, but to me it just sounds like you're making excuses for linux since you like it. This comes more across as the infamous "you're holding it wrong" iphone issue. I'm sure there are many ways to do things in linux, but you can't blame me for being skeptical when you say this so very well documented & recommended way of doing things by both the app developer & distro creators is not the way to do things...
Oh, .debs are great. When you install them using
apt, they work great, because they're provided by your distribution and designed for it. When you download them from somewhere on the internet and stick them into your system, they may or may not match with your system and they may or may not have been well packaged. They might break your system, or they might just not work. In general, I wouldn't recommend doing that as a new user. For Google Chrome? It's probably fine, Google pays enough attention to it that it'll work. I still think it's just a bad habit to teach.I am not the Linux community. The more I learn about how Ubuntu does things, the more I don't like it. That's fine -- you're welcome to think they are right and I am wrong.
I mean -- I'm not trying to say you did anything wrong or illogical in just looking for software and downloading the .deb that said it was for Ubuntu. I'm just saying that that's not the easiest way to do it.
Ha. This is fair. But, I mean, kind of, yes, that's exactly how it works. It's not like an "end user application" you can just pick up and start clicking stuff. Some people have been lying to you and telling you that it is, and now it sounds like you're discovering it's not and you're understandably unhappy about it. When I went to school, they spent a whole semester teaching us Unix before starting to teach any kind of computer science or programming applications, so we'd understand the environment and the tools in a lot of detail. Once I was familiar with it, it was fuckin magic, and still is. But yes, I think a lot of what Ubuntu in particular wants you to do, in service of making it "easier to learn" even though in reality it isn't, is more or less the opposite of what I would do.
First, I sincerely applaud you for your texts you posted on this topic, they are level-headed and stock-full of information, much better than I could have ever written them. Thank you!
Here I would like to differ, because I think it is important to explicitly tell and guide what is a good, reliable way of installing packages (using apt) and what not (directly installing untrusted packages of any kind or form from $randomSite)
I feel this is especially important for new users of Linux because I think they need strict and good guidelines to prevent future havock and disappointment by following extremely bad advice they have not yet the experience to spot as bad advice.
Amendment to my previous comment: Actually, I looked back a little, and in one of my very first messages to him I covered this in I think a pretty crystal-clear manner, and he completely just failed to even acknowledge that part in his response. A lot of his comments continuing to be upset that he couldn't click on .debs came after that one.
Again, I get why he's too upset to be receptive to help in terms of understanding the system better. Usually, being upset is the death of being calmly receptive to new information; it just comes across as "telling him it's his fault." IDK what I could really do at that point though.
I already upvoted that post 😄 and I am still struggling to comprehend his overall and specific level of expertise to be able to address the different topics more accurate.
He'll probably come around again later somewhere as thoughts might need some time in the dark back of the skull to entangle to threads and ideas to experiment again. At least that's how it works for me, still drilling on Nix and the pros and cons of channels vs flakes, imperative vs descriptive, systemwide vs useronly, neofetch from deb or nix, ...
Yeah. He's just frustrated. These things happen.
Yeah, that's fair. If the guy ever does get back to me I'll make a specific explicit point of that.
I really sympathize with the guy, both because I think the core of his complaint is pretty valid even if he's confused about some things, and because without even looking in detail I'm sure 100 different people have showed up to tell him how wrong he is and he's been arguing with 50 of them. He's probably just stormed away in frustration at this point but if we do wind up talking I'll make a little more targeted point about it.
If your screen is at 60hz and your source is at 24hz, some frames will last 2 frames, some will last 3 frames, it's a subtle stutter you see when for example the image is panning (and linux defaulted to 30hz on my monitor, so 24fps on 30hz refreshrate the effect is even more noticable), so i prefer the system to just switch to the proper refresh rate. The monitor/projector support switching to exactly 24fps, in the infinite power of linux, how hard could this be, for real. I get this is "advanced" and "a nice windows feature". But ffs, it's switching your display output. I can right click on my linux desktop, go to the display settings, and select 24fps refresh rate, and it switches. How hard could it be to provide an api to let an application do the same...
If the community is like this on every nice to have feature that shouldn't be that hard to support, linux probably also isn't for me.
(reminds me of another subtle issue i noticed in Kodi. on the windows version i can use the back button on my mouse to go back to the previous screen, on the linux version that didn't work. found an issue about it, where the replies were "we can't map every specific input system you have by default" (but the windows version can). And even better "wtf is a back button on a mouse" (that guy apparently missed the last decade of computer mouse development). And even after multiple users mentioning "we just want the linux version to behave like the windows version", but that question was just ignored in favor of "configure it yourself in the settings (even though the config didn't allow to map that button", and the ignorance of what even a back button on a mouse would be.
I understand that 24/60 doesn't divide evenly. My point is just that televisions don't have this feature either. When I watch movies, even if the source is 24hz, my TV stays at 60hz.
Either way, there certainly is "an API" to do it. With
xrandryou can justxrandr --refresh 24and it would work. It's something that is absolutely doable. Whatever xrandr is doing clearly the X server is exposing ways to change it. So anyone saying "X can't do that" is probably wrong.I don't know much about Ubuntu other than everyone recommends it because it's overly simple and then inevitably things go wrong with it and it's impossible to fix because its overly simple. If I had to guess, this is something specific about Ubuntu and it using wayland by default. Wayland is the X replacement, so any fixes for Xorg refresh rate changing definitely don't apply.
Potential solution : if you log out, on the log in screen it should give you an option of which desktop environment to log into (a gear in the bottom right corner with an option for "Ubuntu on Xorg")...
It's possible that Ubuntu has removed this option recently. Wayland is the future, but it is different from X and not all software is ready for that change. My guess is that the checkbox in Kodi uses the Xorg APIs to change refresh rate, and Wayland doesn't use those APIs, so it just doesn't work. Wayland is in awkward teenage years where it's trying to pretend like it's ready to take on the world, but it's got a lot of rough edges still.
I would say that refresh rate changing doesn't really reflect on "linux on desktop" (a normal desktop use case doesn't have refresh rates changing regularly), but rather "linux as a HTPC/media center". And furthermore, most of your complaints are specific about Ubuntu. The biggest "Linux has issues" problem is that people are still using Ubuntu and picking a distro is way too much work, and the wayland transition is breaking some functionality of some software that hasn't updated yet.
I would like to point out that you have come into a Linux community and lead off with "this is a terrible experience" and then described quite a few issues that either "Ubuntu" (not "Linux") issues or otherwise somewhat non-standard uses. So if you're getting a weird mix of "defensive," "agreement that Ubuntu sucks, use something else," and "utter confusion about the use case" ... its probably the way the conversation started.
Also, this wouldn't be the first thread where someone shows up and complains purely on the basis of "linux isn't windows" so the community is already primed to be agitated about threads like this. Kneejerk reactions aren't the best, but I'm sure you weren't trying to come in here and coming across as aggressive either.
I knew i wouldn't come across too well XD. I might as well have posted this on the "off my chest" community. This was written in frustration so will be negative & harsh, but i'm technical enough to also know that at least 2 of the issues i mention are pretty unforgivable. But just browsing to an SMB share that is discover relying on a protocol that is deprecated and was exploited over 6 years ago by ransomware... Gotta love linux security focus. And that installer suddenly disappearing from ubuntu... nice way to ruin your user experience and make anything they google obsolete and unhelpful and make it hard to figure out how to install stuff when it's not in the default app manager.
And i love how the refreshrate issue is like a magnet for people here to be like "yeah, but do you really need that" (and while they're at it ignore the other 2 issues, since they're inconvient to address). But our eyes are really god at detecting disturbances in smooth motion. I can at least easily spot it, try it next time you watch something on your tv, whenever the camera pans, if the refreshrate & framerate don't perfectly divide, it's visible. It can not bother you, good for you, it does bother me. It's like if i say "you're now on manual breathing mode", and for the next 5 minutes you'll be very aware you're breathing. If the camera makes a nice large panning movement, and i point out how you can see the framerate not matching the refreshrate, you'll probably keep seeing it whenever the camera pans...
Refreshrate is the magnet probably because it feels like the only one that isn't covered by "yeah, ubuntu is shit. I agree." And I understand fully how much refresh matters. I use 144 and 240hz monitors because low refresh bothers me. It was intended as less of a "this shouldn't bother you" and more of a "this is an edge case feature that not even my blu ray player handles, and that's built for the specific purpose of watching videos." It's purely a use case I had never heard of before, so declaring Linux not ready for desktop over a completely niche feature feels unfair. (But again, I would check for Xorg vs Wayland)
Ubuntu has been moving more and more of their software away from deb packaging and towards "snaps" which are their own thing. And snaps are terrible. imo, Canonical is basically trying to figure out how to turn Ubuntu into a walled garden like Microsoft and Apple have.
So Ubuntu handling it's packaging poorly and having out of date software with poor configurations doesn't surprise me at all. I can't counter your argument there because I agree with you that Ubuntu isn't good for desktop. I'm not ignoring those issues, I'm agreeing (just about Ubuntu, and not necessarily Linux as a whole, which has a separate set of issues, like driving you towards Ubuntu in the first place)
I'm currently typing this on a Mac. I literally went into the settings and couldn't immediately figure out how to change my refresh rate at all, let alone how to make my video player change the refresh rate automatically to match the fps of each video file it was playing. Does that mean MacOS isn't ready for the desktop?
I'm actually trying to substantively address what I think is the actual root of your complaints, which I actually think is pretty valid. But this specific detail is a bonkers thing to seize on as something holding back Linux from desktop adoption.
Great question. Are you interested in a substantive answer?
I'm a developer, go for it :).
Haha sure. So one of the biggest weaknesses of Linux is that it's a big patchwork of stuff that was all put together by some particular person to solve some particular problem at some particular time. On Windows, it really is as simple as what you're saying: Make an API, these are the functions, done. It might not be simple under the hood but it's all at least under one entity's control, and it's clearly a nice thing to have, so they have the organizational will to make it happen.
On Linux, you might have three or four pieces of software all which have to interact, some of which were designed decades ago. The video player is maybe using Qt or SDL or something like that. It needs to call library functions in whatever it's using. Those functions need to exist (and the video player's developers have to know which one to call, and make the changes). In order for those to actually work, the library API needs to make calls to Wayland. Oh wait, are you using Wayland? Or Xorg? Depends on your distro. Once it makes it to Wayland/Xorg, it's probably good. But there are already three different APIs that need to have the calls added to them, and the people involved have to all agree on getting it done, and if at any point something changes, it all falls down.
(That's also the explanation for your back-mouse-button sadness. It honestly gets worse than that; I had some toolkit the other day which couldn't understand mouse scrolling which really should be a solved problem at this point. Actually, that was a python / matplotlib problem now that I think about it -- this type of problem impacts pretty much anything that comes from the free software side of the fence.)
If your software is centrally organized, and the people putting it together are profit-motivated, you don't have issues like that, because no sane person would centrally organize it that way, and as you pointed out, end users tend to hate it. On the other hand, if your software is put together by people who want to be able to use it every day, you can say "install me a web server" "now put Wordpress on it" "now install GIMP so I can edit photos" and each of those is a single
aptcommand which takes a few seconds, which is way better than the installation process on Windows. You don't have to hunt around on different web sites, and it all keeps up with security updates automatically. But the down side is that sometimes simple things turn into a big pain in the ass if they happen to cross over multiple boundaries of where different entities' softwares intersect. And as you've discovered, they genuinely don't care at all if you want your back button to work right; they're happy with how their machine works and consider it your problem if yours doesn't. Some people in the corporate-Linux space have been trying for a very long time now to make it "beginner friendly" but in my mind that's always going to be a pretty extreme half-measure just because it's not designed to be so.Does that help?
I guess it kind of helps, but that means that the linux desktop will always be a shit experience, and i should just stick to my headless linux servers and find something else if i want a GUI... which is kind of sad...
And the strength you see in linux... ok, WSL in windows is probably a bit less efficient, but for most usages all those windows downsides are now moot with WSL & docker. if i want to install a web server and wordpress, it's just as easy as any linux server. And installing programs like image editors, can't say i've ever encountered issues doing that on windows.
Of course i know the main advantage of linux is no spyware crap, but it's kind of sad if after all these years that's pretty much still the only advantage. And i do use many open source apps in spite of free(mium) or cheap commercial/cloud alternatives existing that are more user friendly, if it gets the stuff i want done done, it's good enough. But it seems i'm still not ready for the linux desktop experience, no matter how often it's repeated on the fediverse here how good it is now...
I mean, I don't think it's a shit experience at all. It's different. If you're not aware of the strengths, then weaknesses like this are going to turn you off a lot. For me, I would never try to run Windows as my main desktop unless some weird situation came up that really required it, but some of the stuff you're picking out as issues are real issues, yes.
I'm such a dickhead that I literally just spun up a totally fresh Debian server just so I could type
time apt install apache2 wordpressand can report that it took 46.314 seconds including me starting blankly at package lists for a little bit before hitting enter. Go install a web server and Wordpress on a fresh-installed Windows machine and come back and tell me how long it took and how many steps. The point is not that one literal example -- it's that once you learn how to use it, you'll be able to work faster and more happily on it than you will on a Windows machine. If you need something in the domain where Linux shines, networking or development, it'll be as far ahead of Windows as Windows is on things like consumer-hardware support and end-user experience. If you don't need that, then it's not relevant to you and its weaknesses will piss you off and of course you won't like it.This is a very strange statement.
I mean... maybe those are the same people telling you to download Google Chrome .debs so I'm not sure I would put much stock in their statements. I've been hearing for over 20 years that Linux is obviously ready for the desktop, and I'm honestly not really convinced (with experiences like yours as pretty good examples of why).