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Zelenskiy to visit Washington in bid to break Senate deadlock on Ukraine aid
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
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Have you ever considered Ukraine could lose?
Russian is fucked. 350k dead or wounded, another million plus able-bodied men fled, the best military shit destroyed, and the oil spigot shut off to Europe.
Only thing holding that country together is the lies.
And those are starting to unravel.
if that's all it was then why do we need to keep sending millions upon millions of dollars to Ukraine?
We are not sending millions and millions to Ukraine.
In fact that money doesn't leave the country.
riiiiight. ok dude.
Here you go. A map of all the production facilities in the US manufacturing weapon systems for Ukraine with the money congress appropriated. A good chunk are high paying union jobs as well.
One has to ask, why do the Republicans want an end to all this when it's literally a massive money earner?
Because they need it to fail to make the economy take a nosedive to get people to vote republican. It's another "break everything to prove government doesn't work."
I'm willing to bet even if Joe Biden were to agree to their demands on the southern border, they would simply pick up and move the goal posts again because they want the economy to fail.
Is this some kind of joke? The economy is in the tank already. IDGAF what they say on the news. the stock market =/= the economy. just walk outside. look around. ask your neighbors if they think the economy is better or "good". if you're really open minded (which i doubt, given your posts) think back 4 years and ask yourself how much further your dollar when then, compared to today. The GOP doesn't need to do ANYTHING to prove that government doesnt work. our entire system is broken and has been for decades.
i mean, when it's all 1's and 0's...
Have you ever considered Ukraine could lose?
It's a yes or no question.
Edit: Since he just downvoted without answering, we can safely assume his answer is 'no.'
He has never considered Ukraine could lose.
Have you considered "who gives a shit" as a response to that question? Each tank destroyed in Ukraine is a tank that won't need to be destroyed in the Baltics, in Poland or Finland.
Got another one who hasn't considered Ukraine could lose.
Why are you people so afraid to answer this simple yes or no question?
You do realize that simplifying an issue to a "yes or no" is bad debating? Life isn't black and white. Yes, Ukraine might lose in the end. They also might win. As I said - I don't give a shit send them all that is possible so they can win.
No actually, it's not 'bad debating' when the point is that people are succumbing to propaganda.
You try to make it about "people succumbing to propaganda" when most people don't give a shit. They want old weapons to be sent to a country that is currently defending itself from Russia. That's the point of this entite thread, post, whatever.
They want those weapons to be sent because they believe(d) it would enable Ukraine to do things like take back Crimea. Which it hasn't been able to do.
Now we pivot to them needing more to do what? Slow their loss?
I don't think Ukraine can prevent a Russian victory without foreign troops. Not just volunteers; coordinated, foreign, military aid.
Russia has too many men. Their propaganda machine is too strong. Even if Ukrainians can kill more Russians per Ukrainians lost, the numbers simply cannot be ignored unless you are succumbing to propaganda.
You seem to thinking asking that is some gotcha but it's not lmao. Yes, pretty much everyone has considered the possibility. What is the exact point you are trying to make here? Stop obfuscating and just say it.
It doesn't seem that way. Look at how mad people get at the mere suggestion of it.
People are mad because you're acting like a troll and not engaging just repeating a dumb question that doesn't even make sense in context of anything anyone is talking about
Okay.
Lemmy works in such a way that anyone can downvote comments, not just the one you're answering to.
Trick question. Ukraine has already lost the second Russia invaded. They've lost an entire generation. They could still lose territory but I don't see them ever compromising at this point and Russia would have generations of insurgencies to deal with. Ukraine will eventually gain back their territory, if not within the current conflict.
That's not why the West is supporting them though. They are supporting them because Russia is fighting an aggressive land grab not seen since WWII (or arguably Kuwait but not by a nuclear power) and using the exact same tactics. Every major world institution set up since WWII was to prevent exactly this type of aggression.
So, to answer your leading question, yes Ukraine could still lose the current conflict. They already have and that's why they need the aid so that Russia can be as punished as possible to maintain the current deterrence for any other states that would seek to do the same thing.
It's not a trick question at all.
Ukraine is still defending its territory. Ukraine thought, at one time, that it could even take back Crimea. I'm sure many of you thought it could as well. At what point do you admit when you were wrong and acknowledge you could be wrong in the future?
Now it's clear they can't take back Crimea, regardless of how many people believed otherwise. I'm trying to suggest to those same people that maybe, just maybe, it's possible Ukraine is unable to defend its remaining territory as well.
The propaganda machine is in full-swing. Don't fall victim to it, on either sides.
700 Russian casualties yesterday and the kids in the Black Sea naval war says this situation is still significantly dynamic. Failure to advance does not mean Ukraine has lost the way anymore than it means Russia has lost the war in their failure to take Avdivka. People matter. Attrition matters.
War is politics by other means. Germany lost WWI due to a political failure, not anything on the frontlines. French Soldiers were mutinying up to the day of the armistice. There is a lot of political will in Ukraine and Russia didn't seem to get the memo that this has turned into an attritional fight. You interpret that as stalemate. They have interpreted it as needing to kill as many Russians as possible. With an average of 800 Russian casualties a day for the last two months, I'd say they are absolutely not losing this war but showing they can consistently be trusted to take the actions that are most sounds towards winning the war.
Don't think I don't understand propaganda and that both sides do it. You do match the Russian narratives perfectly though. Suspiciously so, actually.
Yeah, I just skipped to the end cause I knew you were going to do this.
Anyone who is not unwavering in their support of Ukraine is a Russian troll in your mind.
Forget all the comments I make about diverting resources from Israel to Ukraine, lol. The fact I suggested Ukraine might lose is enough for me to "match the Russian narratives perfectly." Suspiciously so, actually.
Nice tribalism. I don't expect you to rise above it or acknowledge it.
You're doing it right now.
You skipped all the parts where I provided supporting evidence. You make yourself look ignorant. Sorry, I didn't read anything after the first sentence. (Actually I did read it but it doesn't actually expand on anything)
Yes, Ukraine is losing because they have not made it as far as they hoped is exactly the Russian narrative. It's not unwavering support but you completely ignore the rest of my comment so I don't know what to tell you. You look like an idiot because you are not addressing my points and just continuing the exact Russian narratives. I'm not entirely certain that you aren't a bugging bot that couldn't deal with an actual military political assessment.
Yes. And the ramifications of that eventuallity is why it can't happen.
Yes.
And this is why I support sending them money. No investment is certain, but "the concept of democracy" is a pretty good one
I'm all for giving them support. Heck, give them all the support Israel is getting and has been getting for years!
Just, I'm not in favor of a blank check. There are stipulations to that. One of which is "Ukraine might lose."
In what way have we given Ukraine a blank check?
We haven't. I don't think we should.
I don't believe that's ever been proposed.
Man, what the hell happened?
I take a break from work and I see some bitch complaining about downvotes like they matter here.
Look, homey, you obviously have a hard-on for oppression and hate freedom. It might be from your shitty life choices you've made or where the GFSM decided to plant you. Honestly, I don't care.
Let me give you a piece of advice: no one wins in war except the grim reaper. This mad quest for power that Putin is rushing to complete will only end in misery for the common people of Russia. Ukrainians will never give up, nor should they.
Silly chitak166, don't you realize anyone who disagrees is a Russian bot.
It's either they will lose without support or they may not lose with it. Only one option results in a chance of Ukraine existing.