this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2023
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Yeah no, the person behind the human shield wants to kill you and your family and is actively trying to accomplish said goal.
Yeah it's pretty much the equivalent of the trolley-problem in real life.
The question is how many casualties are "valid" before the cost is too high - and that's just a morally impossible choice to make prefectly
People that pretend it's a black and white question and that either pretend the IDF is 100% wrong or the IDF is 100% right are just ignoring one side if the issue completely.
In general I'd say the IDF is more often right than wrong in this conflict but they obviously fucked up, too - but at least for them it's not the intention to cill civilians other than for the people they try to actually get to
Shooting hellfire missiles at crowds from helicopters, just a regular Thursday oopsie daisy.
The people killing human shields are just as shitty as the people using human shields. Both are terrorists.
Would be the best for the first asshole not to take human shields to begin with.
I'm sorry I can't hear you over a settlement being bulldozed. Wait a second for the bulldozers to stop.
Oh silly me...they don't stop.
Are you trying to justify using human shields?
I literally never said that. Youre doing the bad faith thing.
Friend, I'masking you because I was baffled what your comment had to do with anything. I still am. Could you explain the relevancy?
You're not wrong, but that's not what's happening, and it's still not an excuse.
What do you mean?
I mean we're in a situation where civilians are being used as human shields. It would be nice if we weren't, but that's not what's happening.
Because Hamas took human shields. They could have not taken them. But yes, it happened and it's not like it can be taken back now.
And it still doesn't justify IDF massacring thousands of Palestinians.
Well duh
Can we stop using the word terrorist for something that it obviously not terrorism? Terrorist use terrorism to strike fear into the population of a more powerful state and hope for and overreaction that would play into their cards. I can only see one terrorist organization here. But, the IDF is that overreacting oppenent.
You're right. Starving out civilians and bombing their homes doesn't make IDF terrorists. It makes them war criminals.
That would be a much more correct term.
And so you're justified in killing an unlimited amount of children to get to them.
Again, it's the trolley problem. No one is saying unlimited amount.
It sure fuckin looks like Israel is saying "unlimited amount"
By what statement? By what action? "Unlimited amount" would be to not alert ahead of an attack on northern Gaza and catch Hamas commanders unguarded while destroying buildings with people still in them. What they did is provide a notice weeks ahead of the invasion of "we're gonna invade you, run". That's literally the best thing they could've done in that situation humanitarianly, and the most ridiculous thing to do militarily.
Israel has stopped warning people. No text messages and no calls (not that there's power to receive them) and no roof knocking.
They're bombing the safe zones. They're bombing the evacuation routes. They're bombing UN schools and shelters. More children are dying per day in this conflict than any conflict in recent history. Thousands and thousands of children are dead or buried under rubble.
Stop defending genocide. You are on the wrong side of history and we will remember.
"You warned everyone weeks ahead but you stopped doing so now so you're wrong"?!?!?!?!?
Are you serious? What more do you want from them? They did everything they could to alert everyone in Gaza that they were coming and the need to evacuate.
They're making their own safe routes, transferring thousands of civilians through them. You really can't expect more from an army, when its purpose is killing its enemies. Looks like they waste lots of time doing non-killing.
And the number of victims is terrible, but it's the price of war, and it looks like the Palestinian leaders are more than happy to accept those numbers. War is a 2 sided thing, and you only blame one - and the one which is doing literally all it can to prevent needless death. While the other side, which you think is just, is parading dead bodies and advocating for true genocide "from the river to the sea". What peace can there be with that kind of leadership.
History will remember this war like they remember WW2. Did Britain kill civilian germans? Lots. The number of german killed vs the number of British killed is humongous. Are they remembered as "merciless killers"? No. Because they were fighting objective evil.
So is Israel.
They're bombing the safe zones you lying shit. No where is safe. The goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable so they are forced to flee the country and then Israel can annex the strip and make it part of Israel proper. Multiple politicians and government agencies have openly said this!
Ethnic cleansing through mass killing. Genocide.
Also? A multiethnic democracy, a free Palestine, from the river to the sea is not genocide. Making Israeli Jews into Palestinians is not genocide. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, which is a settler colony made from a British imperial mandate and it doesn't have a right to exist.
LOL multiethnic democracy I can't even. In what bizzare la la land do you live in
Have you ever heard a single Palestinian talk about the issue? I'd recommend watching "the ask project" on Youtube and actually realize who the terrorists you're supporting really are. They're extremist Islamics who want a jihad state like Iran, where Jews have been prosecuted and banished in a severe ethnic cleanse in the 20th century. Oh and btw that "colony" was approved by the UN, not by the U.K. There needs to be a jewish state, the second world war proved that. They're the actual most prosecuted people ever, unlike Palestinians who brought this upon themselves when they went out to war on their own terms and lost on their own terms and refused to actually start a country on internationally accepted borders, since jihad views the infadels as enemies, and only islam can rule the region. Just read Hamas' covenant.
And yes. Israel bombs Gaza. They're in a war, and civilians die. Those so-called "safe zones" aren't safe because of course they're not, when Hamas operatives who are arming themselves also take "shelter" there. How can a place have peace when people are arming themselves 20m away, on their way to perform an actual ethnic cleanse of jews.
Oh and if Israel are trying to ethnic cleanse through mass killing, they truly suck at it, given they still have over 2m people to savagely kill rape and parade their bodies. Oh wait! That's what Hamas did, not Israel. Oops. Got confused, since you keep crying genocide towards the wrong side.
I swear lemmy is full with people like you, who believe everything Hamas is telling since they're the "oppressed", "weaker" side, and without using a single brain cell and actually see who're the bad guys here. It's either that or you just really hate the west and wish to live in Iran - which if that's the case - we have no conversation here, and maybe you should move to a place fit to your messed up ideals of religious authoritarianism.
Ignoring the rest of your racist rant:
Here's the plan, that Israeli politicians and agencies and think tanks have been pretty explicitly saying:
They want to expell the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt through the use of collective punishment and mass killing because they can't actually kill them all. Yes, they have enough bombs and control over imports to technically sterilize the concentration camp, but if they actually did that the world would turn on them. Even America would be forced to drop them and they'd be more isolated than the DPRK, with the entirety of the region would declare war on them.
Whatever. Public opinion is not on your side and history will not look kindly on you. You're losing.
And what were the racist things I said? I'd like to know given you clearly know so much more about the conflict, even more than the U.S, with your brilliant master plan of Israel politics
And I don't like to feel like a broken record, but again, history remembers Britain as the just side although the casualties in Germany were much much greater. So again, I doubt that.
I see this as 2 sides of the world fighting right now: the west with its western ideology, vs the countries who are against said western values (Iran Russia China), which the global left chose to side with the authoritarian regimes of the world... Sounds like the good call. Totally. Yep.
If anything, I'd put my money on the western side, which is Israel vs the terrorists Iran proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis).