this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
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Risa
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I know I might be about to ruffle some feathers, but The Orville is how you do representation right imo. The whole story arc with Topa was beautiful.
Like, something that turned me off of nu-trek was how the representation was handled. It felt pandery to an almost gross extent. Like, Jesus Christ man, it's the year 24-something-something, why are you still acting like being gay is a big deal? OoOoOoOoo oh nooooo, there's gay people WoooOoOooo. And while I don't remember there being spoken pandering in the few episodes I watched, there was something about how the scenes were constructed, the shots were lined up, etc, that felt like they were trying to draw attention to the LGBT members doing LGBT things. Again, it's 24XX, I'm supposed to believe humanity has achieved near-utopia, why am I getting the feeling that you're trying to show me how gay these dudes are purely because they're gay. You don't need to do that. It's 24XX, who the hell is still getting bent out of shape about homosexuality 400 years from now?
The Orville, on the other hand, just kinda... treated it like it was normal. Some characters are gay, some characters are straight, but the show didn't really focus on it; some guys just liked other guys more than gals and vice versa. They treated it like it was normal.
Okay, okay, but I brought up Topa, and Topa's story arc is literally all about Topa's gender problems. How does that not go against my previous complaints? Well, Topa isn't human. Topa is from a male-dominated culture that believes femininity is weakness and should be eradicated via gender reassignment. It's not a human culture, and so it doesn't clash with the idea of humanity having a near-utopia. A human utopia involves everyone being treated equally, so when you imply different treatment, whether through dialog choices or cinematography, it clashes with that idea. But the Moclans don't have a utopia, and so putting emphasis on Topa being female makes sense, especially when it comes to the human crew struggling with the clashing ideas of Moclan forced gender reassignment and the human take on sapient rights. Unlike nu-trek, there's no dissonance there.
I'm pretty lukewarm on Discovery, I've seen all of it but most episodes only once, so maybe I just don't remember it. Who got bent out of shape over Stamets and/or Culber being gay?
There was a multi episode story arc about a teenager (forgot her name, had a teenage boyfriend and got adopted by Stamets/Cullen) coming out as non binary and choosing they as their pronoun.
It was very heavy handed on drama, whereas if there was any internal consistency, there wouldn't be any "coming out" at all because "staying in the closet" wouldn't be a thing. The whole thing felt like having a Jane Austen dialogue in present Norway.
I would love to be able to say this was a one off occurrence, but pretty much all dialogue is heavy handed, with excessive drama not supported by the fiction. While TNG is rather under acted, DSC is heavily over acted. Out goes technobabble, in comes soap opera.
A "multi episode story arc"? You mean these 90 seconds? The only way this bit of character and relationship development could be less "heavy handed" would be if it didn't happen at all.
Don't be like that. We're all discussing in good faith here.
Before that happens, Adira spends considerable time with the ghost boyfriend on how would that be received and goes through considerable angst processing it. Before even that it's shown them in considerable anguish to come out to their boyfriend even.
Of that arc, the one thing well executed was the 90 seconds you pointed.
So yeah, most of it shouldn't happen in a welcoming environment in the 25th century. Her adoptive parents had no issue being a gay couple adopting a teenager, in which universe would that teenager ever feel the need to hide their sexuality and insecurities from them? Why the anguish?
It's pretty much established since TNG and DS9 that pansexuality is mainstream. In The Outcast, Riker was involved with a non binary alien; the episode wasn't about the reactions (the crew was absolutely nonchalant about it), with Worf supporting Riker trying to rescue the alien that broke their social customs. You can still send a message with a good in universe justification.
There's no in universe justification for Adira. She doesn't come from a backwards culture, has crazy conservative parents, there's no atavic crewmate around, no aliens taking offense... It's a non conflict. It's bad writing.
To be clear, it's a message that needs to be on TV. But it's a damn shame they did it so poorly when it could easily have been set up to actually create a conflict that would then be resolved. You need in universe bigots to show bigotry being overcomed.
It's not good faith to misrepresent or outright fabricate events. Nor is it good faith to dismiss people who are trying to point that out to you. There were no such lengthy, anguished conversations or multi-episode arcs. I'm baffled how you fabricated entire scenes that never occurred?
That never happened. That 90 second clip is it, and it's actually only 27 seconds of that scene. It was never brought up before or after that conversation. Remember, Adira had amnesia when we first met them and was unable to recall anything about their past.
There was no arc. That clip comprises the entirety of Adira's coming out. Not to be redundant, but it's never discussed before or after this scene.
You misgendered Adira and got the century wrong. Stamets is from the 23rd and Adira is from the 32nd.
Your comment is a moot point because Adira never once says they were discriminated against or fearful of that happening with Stamets (or any of the DIS crew.)
Setting that aside, in general you cannot make blanket statements about individuals unless they're the Borg. People aren't deterministic machines who follow a static program they're unable to deviate from. They all have have different life experiences, cultural background, beliefs, and personalities which result in different levels of enlightenment. It would be more accurate to say that discrimination still exists in the future but it's less likely relative to modern times.
There's plenty of Star Trek episodes that demonstrates discrimination still exists. The Federation and Starfleet discriminate against synthetic life. Data was treated as property and ordered to undergo a life threatening procedure so Stafleet could create a race of slaves. He had to sue in court to win the right to choose is own fate. The Doctor on Voyager had similar experiences. Picard discusses the undercurrent of discriminatory attitudes that hampered the Romulan evacuation effort in PIC. Shapeshifters are often treated in a prejudiced manner and viewed as untrustworthy. Barclay was treated poorly by the Enterprise crew for the crime of not fitting in.
People in the future of Star Trek are still imperfect. They're fallible beings who can engage in irrational behavior like discrimination. A more accurate statement is that discrimination still exists, but it's less likely. Such things work based on probability, and the role enlightenment plays is to make it less common. Outliers exist though, especially in a population numbering in the trillions. All it takes is one bad experience to shape Adira's interactions with others.
Anyway, this pretty much a moot point because Adira never mentions being discriminated against or felling that might happen with the DIS crew.
You misgendered Adira again.
No, you don't actually know this. Those elements of Adira life are never revealed. Adira never states they were discriminated against or feared that's what would happen on DIS. I'm unsure where you're getting this.
If you're referring to their tone or body language, you'd have to be psychic to know it was specifically a result of discrimination. There are lots of logical explanations you're dismissing such as the simplest one—Adira's personality. Conflict of any type (such as correcting your abrasive superior) often makes people uncomfortable. Occam's razor and all that.
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt I see no problem with that scene. Maybe Adira assumes someone from nearly 1000 years in the past is a bigot? Imagine coming out to someone from 1123. Or maybe Adira did have unaccepting parents or just one single bad experience that overshadowed everything? How do you know more about Adira's life than Adira themself? That's not a good faith argument; that's just confirmation bias.
Cool! Do you have any examples from scenes that actually happened?
I would love to provide with some, but as it stands I'm not about to re-watch a show that didn't entertain me enough in the first time just to make a point on an internet argument.
If you like the show and disagree with me, great. I believe there's another season coming, so enjoy.
That's an awfully roundabout way of saying you're spouting made-up bullshit.
Regardless of your opinions about the storyline, you can address the character by their proper pronouns. Or you can choose to no longer post here.
It wasn't intentional. English isn't my first language and Adira being a female name where I'm from it just slipped out. I did get it right most of the time, but between articulating my thoughts and writing in English, I stumbled here and there.
What is that?
What is what?
That phrase. What do you mean by that.
I mean you can choose to respect people's pronouns or you can choose to no longer be a member of this community. What is unclear?
I was having a really hard time processing the fact that what seemed like open discourse had so suddenly devolved to threats. Do you get a kick from doing that?
Why do you feel like an expectation of a minimal level of respect for other people is a threat?
Now you're twisting my words. Reread what you wrote, there's your answer. This conversation has ran its course.
You're correct. Have a time out.
idk sounds kinda heavy handed on drama