this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
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Woohoo both systems suck. You can actually believe that just because one system is bad, what is considered the opposite is also bad. Marx was not some omniscient doctor manhattan. He had some ideas. Some were good critiques on capitalist culture. Others were fantasy that do not function in the real world.
Notice how the folks arguing in favor of Communism have sources and receipts, while the folks arguing against it have done nothing but regurgitated Capitalist propaganda. Also note folks who are opposed to Communism and Marx's philosophy are always forced to admit that it only works on paper, because his logic is irrefutable if you address it with a modicum of intellectual honesty...
You link stuff, but ignore the actual accounts of human beings who fucking lived it.
Bruh, almost every old person I've heard talk about Communism that lived under it talks about it fondly. Lmao
I have a whole fucking family, who lived through the USSR. Not a single one of them misses it. Being spied on every step you take, my grandma has the "you never know who's watching" mentality to this day.
That's not to say they don't hate the current regime, but it's nothing compared to the absolute atrocities of the USSR's secret police.
Doubt that very much, liar
Why are you so aggressive man?
Bruh there is a reason Putin is framing his imperialist ideations as a revival of the USSR. Also I've watched a shit ton of bald and bankrupt videos where all the old people he talks to go on and on about how times were better under the Soviet governments. Facts dont care about your feelings
You know, it's a universal thing. That's what MAGA is about, that's what Hitler pushed. Glorifying distant past no one really remembers, reinventing it, it's fucked up, especially if it's promoted via selective parts of it. You can't use political stunts as a proof of anything. They sell you dreams because they can't show something real, they can't show important systemic improvements. In times of fuck ups, they show you that billboard, shining so bright it's blinding, while bread prices climb 2-3x to what they were a decade ago. And people indulge in that constructed feeling of it being better before, while government can do whatever they want.
Ok, how about people currently living through communism? 83% of Chinese people believe they live in a democracy, more than in the US. Chinese citizens are on average around 4 times wealthier than their parents. Millennials are the first generation in US history to be poorer than their parents. Most of the wealth in the US is held by boomers who lived through the tail end of new deal social democracy.
Do you also disregard these accounts by people who are currently living through communism? Or will you move the goal post again?
There is a reason, it's just not the one you think. Hint; it's about empire, not communism.
Things got much worse for most citizens of the USSR after it collapsed and state industry was privatized. Life expectancy dropped pretty severely. It shouldn’t be surpassing that anyone who suffered under that economic collapse would tell you the USSR was better.
Ok let's do some links
Holodomor
Chinese famine
Gulag
Homelessness in Russia
Continued
Aight bet
Trail of Tears
How British colonialism killed 100 million Indians in 40 years
United States represents about 4.2 percent of the world's population, it houses around 20 percent of the world's prisoners
1 in 5 children in America worry about their next meal.
2,000,000 to 60,000,000 Africans died in the Transatlantic Slave Trade
Dude this is pure what aboutism
You're claiming communism is so great and when presented with links you just go "WELL WHAT ABOUT ALL THIS HUH" and then completely ignore the above. It's ridiculous. Actual text book definition of what about ism. Seriously stop and think for yourself for two seconds without restarting to this tribal shit slinging mentality.
Yeah, capitalism is bad, we live in it, we can see that happening around us, but you're eating literal propaganda about communism and ignoring actual verifiable evidence. This isn't a capitalism vs communism debate, there are more than two fucking systems you smooth brain chud
So what's your solution? And what verifiable evidence are you talking about?
Love how all your sources are NATOpedia and all their sources are actual sources.
Yeah but some guy I once met had a grandpa who lived in Europe for a year, he said Russia was great
The holodomor narrative surrounding the ussr wide famine of 32-33 was literal nazi propaganda from open nazi collaborators and was used as a justification for the mass murder of jews in Eastern Europe during the holocaust.
It was debunked in the literal 1930s in the US and now it re-emerges like a zombie during an era where fascism is on the rise. Even anticommunist academics like Applebaum, Davies, and Conquest say it wasn't a genocide.
What a crock of shit. Practically every historian says it was caused by soviet policy. The only debate that occurs if whether it was due to stupidity or intentional genocide.
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I could keep going. Gonna tell me how the Holocaust was a lie too?
Literally none of your sources definitively claim it was a genocide except the university of Minnesota one which cites Davies and Applebaum who later says it wasn't.
Also lol, you use Wikipedia, a random university of Minnesota webpage, KellogInsight, and I dont even know where you got your last source but it literally cites Wheatcroft and Davies amongst others who do not argue it was a genocide after examining the soviet archives.
No, the holocaust is a well documented historical fact, unlike the holodomor. The soviet wide famine of 1932 and 33 is a well documented historical fact, it is also not considered a genocide by mainstream anticommunist historians, who argue to what extent soviet policies and which policies worsened the famine.
Also ironic that you ask "do you also deny the holocaust" given the holodomor myth was used as justification to kill Jewish people during the holocaust and was later used as justification for collaboration with the holocaust.
Here is a well respected Jewish historian and activist on it:
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Wow the lengths commies go to deny actual genocide.
We all know communism is an ideology strictly for the uneducated and violent, why try so hard to make it seem like something else? The countless sexual and ethnic minorities murdered by communism due to its inherent hateful nature is something only the nazis on the other end of the fascism-spectrum rivaled.
The lengths liberals will to go to buy into fascist atrocity propaganda that was used as justification for the mass slaughter of Jewish people by nazis and nazi collaborators
You're literally doing fascist propaganda. Here is a liberal Jewish holocaust historian and activist writing on it:
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Fascists kill minorities, wow, who would've thought. It's amazing how many commies pretend to label themselves as anti racist and pro trans rights, yet just so happen to advocate for an ideology based on murdering people on the basis of their ethnicity and sexual/gender orientation. Coincidence don't you think?
Communist countries have historically been less violent to minorities than bourgeois democracies.
Also read the fucking Jewish holocaust scholar's writing and absorb it for a second.
This is simply not true. Every communist regime in history has started off with a systematic slaughter of minorities.
Started off? Which minority was slaughtered in Cuba? What about Korea? How about Afghanistan? China? Vietnam? The USSR? I mean at the start. The USSR did do some legitimately bad things to minorities (particularly German, polish, and Korean) in the lead up to and during ww2) but that was later on and those paled in comparison to the crimes of their capitalist contemporaries.
I think you're talking out your ass.
Please read upon actual history before pretending to know any of it. Every nation you mentioned slaughtered their minorities, it is intrinsic to the ideology, a core foundation. Communism without unchecked violence, aggression and ethnic cleansing isn't communism.
Also loving the token Whataboutism™ at the end, sign of a true tankie lmao, y-y-yes all communist nations have cleaned off their trans folk b-b-but there are some liberal nations too that did it, even though liberalism is the only ideology that has the capability to support a non-violent society lmao get fucked transphobe.
Could you give me a recommendation on history books that go over the slaughter of minorities in Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea then? Since you know so much about it.
Oh, that is what I thought. Have you considered actually talking to Cubans, either people who live there or cuban immigrants who arent aggrieved about their grandpa's plantation?
Fuck I gotta tell my local commune that they aren't really communist
Fallacy fallacy. If we are judging ideologies on how many atrocities they commit, you have to judge them against other ideologies.
Lol 20 million people die a year of starvation or lack of clean water under liberal hegemony.
The archetypal liberal state shoots thousands of black men a year, and creates conditions that mean 40 percent of homeless youth are lgbt. It has the largest prison system in history, and has killed millions of civilians in wars of aggression over the last 20 years. You're projecting the crimes of capitalism onto communism, consider criticizing communism for what it actually did wrong.
No one is going to deny that making perpetual motion device is good. How are you going to do that?
Do you have source and receipts for real life communism solving housing problem? Not being better than capitalism. Solving. Being better than capitalism is kinda low bar you know. There are plenty of other things that real life capitalism does better than real life communism, hence communism failure. No one is going to show up with receipts and sources because obvious.
You show us tents as a capitalist solution. That's not a capitalist solution. That's the problem itself. You're misleading.
Can you at least try to sound less douche about things?
The joke is that Capitalism DOES NOT have a solution to homelessness because there is zero profit motive to solve it. And facts dont care about your feelngs, you cant refute Marx's philosophy while being intellectual honest. Capitalist Economists study Das Kapital because Marx was so fucking spot on.
Yes, that's why there is no pure capitalist country anywhere.
Why are you keep doing this? I said I don't disagree with Marx. It'd be nice if communism can happen. Facts don't care about your feelings either and all the shitty attemps of communism failed due to human being shitty. If you have to kill off people to keep the ideology, only to fail after about few decades, it has some reality problems.
And again, I cannot stress this enough, can you please stop sounding like a 16 year old kid who just read few paragraphs of Marx going iamverysmart about it?
The existence of state run social services and regulations does not mean a country is not fully capitalist if you’re using Marx’s understanding of what capitalism is. Additionally I think there is a misconception that communism depends on altruistic behavior. It really doesn’t.
No need to refute Marx, reality has already proven time and time again that communism doesn't work in practice.
Btw your argument only applies to "pure" capitalism, without any government interference. Homelessness is not really an issue in many European countries.
You mean the reality where every 1st world nation on the planet did everything in their power to keep Communism from working. Bahahaha
Didn't take much to stop a system dreamed up by idealists and idiots from working. The very concept is flawed.
Tell me you haven’t read Marx without telling me you haven’t read Marx.
Seriously though, Marx is like the guy you go read if you want a ruthless critique of idealism. I’d go so far as to say it’s the reason his theories became so popular in the first place.
Who cared about Marx? He wrote a book. He didn't lead a country. Nobody cares about theories when they don't hold up in practice. And they never have.
You’re right, nobody has ever cared about Marx. No communist revolutionaries anywhere have ever called themselves Marxists. If they did, then their projects must have surely collapsed by now. That’s because Marx was very clear that his political theories were not made to be adaptable or revisable based on new information and changing conditions. No, that would be far too scientific for someone we can agree was clearly an idealist.
It's funny how upset it makes people when you point out the elephant in the room.
Truely