this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
399 points (91.1% liked)

World News

39032 readers
2299 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Based on those definitions, what Israel went through is considered genocide against them and multiple times including the recent attacks as they absolutely targeted Israeli civilians.

Yes.

This is an overly broad definition and includes literally every war ever.

Yes, that's literally what the Geneva Conventions is about.

Air strikes against seemingly military targets that end up not being military targets does not constitute genocide. Not by a long shot.

One casualty, no. Twenty casualty, no, but that might be a war crime. Eight thousands casualty and rising, including hostages, that is a large group. It include targeting refugee camp, place of worship that house refugees, hospital, evacuation route, that is genocide.

Your UN article simply states that there is suffering. Name a single war where that wasn't the case. Is all war genocide?

Terrible argument because that's not how genocide is defined, 0 point for the mental gymnastic. Genocide is a motive, not all war is genocide. But yes, a lot of war tend to consist the element of genocide because of one stronger group trying to eliminate a weaker group, including Israel - Palestine conflict, where Israel has been oppressing Palestine for decades.

Your other articles simply define that they are at war in response to a massive terrorist attack.

Apply the context of the article to the definition of genocide.

That is not genocide by this definition as it does not define the difference between a justified defensive war and a genocide.

Genocide did not define whether it's defensive nor offensive, nor the Geneva Conventions give a shit about how you think it should be. As it stand, being the defensive party does not give them any right to commit the atrocity they're currently doing.

Israel was at war the second they were attacked. War is not pretty. It is not genocide.

Using your line of thinking, Hamas is not genocidal group because war is not pretty.

You would be far better off scoping your argument outside of the confines of the current conflict as they were attacked by an elected organization by Palestine.

And in return, they murdered 8000 non-combatant of the people that they successfully dehumanised, just like all the conflict they have with Palestine for decades.

Holocaust Denial Trope also detailed on what people do to deny the holocaust, but lets swap some letter:

  • Details of the ~~Holocaust~~ Palestinian Genocide Have Been Exaggerated
  • Witness Testimony is Fabricated or Inaccurate
  • ~~Jews~~ Hamas Invented the ~~Holocaust~~ Palestinian Genocide for Financial and Political Gain
  • The ~~Holocaust~~ Palestinian Genocide is a ~~Zionist~~ Hamas Political Tool
  • ~~Jews~~ Palestinian are Responsible for Their Own Persecution

Wouldn't be too far off from what is happening today.

[–] galloog1@lemmy.world -5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The key difference to your last paragraph and the current situation is the trustworthiness of the narrative. Hamas has been shown time and time again to show complete disregard to the truth when they make claims of war crimes and civilians killed by Israel. I am sorry that you have any trust in them at all but you should validate your sources. Every militant struck is claimed to be a civilian. Every single one.

[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are you saying of the 8700 death, all of them are combatant? Or are you saying it's okay to kill 100 non-combatant to get to that 1 combatant? How many combatant were kill? Do you have any source to claim otherwise? Or is it all out from your own ass?

It's funny when a genocide denial trying to argue about genocide denial trope, they fit right into it.

[–] galloog1@lemmy.world -4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm saying that you literally cannot trust the things they say and it's been proven more often than not. It's extremely well documented.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/%3famp=true

"Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report."

It is immensely consistent over time and they do it because it works.

[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 2 points 1 year ago

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/

One source told the Telegraph: “The numbers from Hamas cannot be trusted, although even one killed or injured child or innocent person is one too many.

“In the end it is not really about exact numbers but about the fact that undeniably innocent people are dying or being injured.”

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/%3famp=true

Hamad’s figures closely match the Israeli estimate of 709 combatant fatalities and indicate that combatants comprised around half of the Palestinian fatalities in the time period of Dec. 27, 2008 through Jan. 18, 2009

Statistics about Palestinians who lost their lives during the military operations vary. Based on extensive field research, non-governmental organizations place the overall number of persons killed between 1,387 and 1,417.

Fact still remain about half of that casualty is civilian in that conflict. 700 civilian. Fact still remain that the disregard of Israel toward the civilian is always consistent in their assault.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/camera-committee-for-accuracy-in-middle-east-reporting-and-analysis/

Critics of CAMERA claim that it is an ‘extreme Israel advocacy group’ aligned with hawkish right-wing viewpoints. In general, they frequently report negatively on left-leaning media that does not fully support Israel, such as THE WASHINGTON POST BURIES THE TRUTH ABOUT PALESTINIAN TERRORISM, and this ROLLING STONE JUMPS ON PRO-TERRORIST BANDWAGON.

Sure, a media that mark all Palestinian as terrorist, we should listen to that.

But here you're just moving the goal post.