I see what you're saying, and I agree with it, but the question isn't asking "Which egg was the first chicken egg?", it's asking "Did the egg come before the chicken?" Determining the exact point is a way of answering the question, but is a lot of work that isn't strictly necessary to do so.

We can use the Theorem because we don't care when that point actually was, the question doesn't ask that. We just need to prove that there was such a point, and the Theorem does that.

To use that text as an analogy, we don't care which is the first purple or blue word, we just know there is one because the gradient starts from red, passes through purple, and ends up blue, so it must have a first purple word and a first blue word.

[–] funnystuff97@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, but if you're using the IVT as a proof that there was a point where there was indeed a "first chicken egg", you still haven't answered whether the first chicken egg came before the first chicken. Clearly there was a first egg and there was a first chicken, IVT proves this, but which came first? This depends on those definitions. We'd need to find exactly where it "passes over", which could depend on who you ask.

If you define a chicken as hatching from a chicken egg ("every chicken must have hatched from a chicken egg"), then the egg came first. If you define a chicken egg as an egg that was laid by a chicken ("all chicken eggs must have been laid by chickens"), then the chicken came first. And notice how these definitions are not necessarily mutually exclusive, leading to this whole philosophical issue in the first place.

If, in a much more extremely broad sense, we're asking which came first, chickens or eggs in general, then I think we could agree that eggs came first, as I believe creatures were laying eggs long before the first "chicken" emerged, for most definitions of "chicken".

[–] Spuddaccino@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

We'd need to find exactly where it "passes over", which could depend on who you ask.

No, we don't. It doesn't matter when that is, because you and I both agree that it's out there somewhere, and that at the point in time referenced, a non-chicken laid an egg and a chicken hatched out of it. That's all we need out of that point, and neither of us are disputing that part of it.

If you define a chicken as hatching from a chicken egg ("every chicken must have hatched from a chicken egg"), then the egg came first. If you define a chicken egg as an egg that was laid by a chicken ("all chicken eggs must have been laid by chickens"), then the chicken came first.

Agreed. I, personally, use the broader egg definition you reference in the last paragraph, but a definition of "chicken egg" would put the whole thing to rest, and I propose this: Not every chicken egg contains a viable chicken. We all agree that these eggs are still chicken eggs when we buy them at the supermarket, though, so my proposed definition is that a chicken egg is laid by a chicken. Otherwise, we end up with unclassified eggs in our omelettes, and we can't have that.

[–] flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

Thank you both, I really enjoyed reading this and probably learned a few things along the way