tilthat: TIL a philosophy riddle from 1688 was recently solved. If a man born blind can feel the differences between shapes such as spheres and cubes, could he, if given the ability, distinguish those objects by sight alone? In 2003 five people had their sight restored though surgery, and, no they could not.
nentuaby: I love when apparently Deep questions turn out to have clear empirical answers.
They say this but we have the color wheel. It is trivial to find clothing that goes together, or colors that can invoke a mood. If we really did have alternative experiences I cant imagine it wouldn't have been qualified, understood, and addressed by marketing already.
Orange and blue means action
https://yesimadesigner.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/9-768x1139.jpg
https://imgix.ranker.com/user_node_img/110/2186618/original/the-dark-knight-films-photo-u19?w=650&q=50&fm=pjpg&fit=fill&bg=fff
https://www.femalefirst.co.uk/image-library/port/1000/f/fantastic-four-group-poster.jpg
http://ayay.co.uk/movies/poster/superhero/daredevil-elektra-teaser.jpg
https://comic-cons.xyz/wp-content/uploads/marvel-cinematic-universe-captain-marvel-movie-poster.jpg
Those are cultural associations though, not biological
Are they? I am sure you must have seen art forms from centuries ago from cultures very alien to your own and were still moved. But even if it was cultural you would still have to wonder why no one is catering to that culture. If a segment of the population really did see colors differently wouldn't someone make stuff for them to get that market?
Just look at how associations between color and genders differ between cultures and change over time. Those differences absolutely exists, you're just not seeing it because you're not the target audience
You mean one time?
If most of history is just one time
https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8451877/
Very well. Please tell me about the past twenty or so times that boy girl color associations changed.
Even it happening one time is enough to disprove it not happening.
Irrelevant
https://handwiki.org/wiki/Gendered_associations_of_pink_and_blue
Looking at it with the concept of mathematical equivalence in mind, the behavior can be almost the same yet internal representation can still be wildly different
You are just making a statement that has no connection to what I wrote. Human beings have preferred color combinations. Address this first.
1+1 = 2
2/2+2/2 = 2
Sqrt(2+2) = 2
The internal experience can be very different despite having outwards similar expressions like shared preferences.
Why the differences would cancel out wouldn't necessarily be easy to explain, and sure it implies big differences are rare, but it's not impossible. Especially because we already know of many existing biological differences which still produce similar outcomes (in part due to redundancies) like in chemical balances and protein expressions, very commonly seen in differences in the gastric system
Do you have evidence from neurology that this is happening?
For starters
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-surprised-to-find-no-two-neurons-are-genetically-alike/
I am skeptical that colors universally bring about moods or concepts. One would have to prove this is true despite cultural conditioning that ascribes meaning to different colors.
I also doubt that each person experiences colors in a significantly unique way. Unless we can show that the receptors in our retinas, or the neurons receiving those signals, behave differently from person to person. I have to wonder if widely appealing art (that uses color) could even exist if we didn't share the underlying mechanisms of seeing and reacting to its colors.
Very well. How do we account for the associations we all have? Who sat you down and told you that distant colors should invoke excitement? That vibrant colors were fun to look at? That judges almost universally in cultures separated in time and geography should wear black or that red would be popular with people one rank below the boss? Or that cool light means focus and warm light means relax?
I just find this whole idea that it is just cultural to be indirect contradictuon to what I have seen. Especially when I am thinking about all those traditional artforms. People a thousand years before I was born making stainglass, or murals, or painted pagodas that are still amazing to look at despite the vast differences in cultures between me and the artist.
I also don't recall the conversation when I was a kid in trailer park in the Appalachian Mountains when my parents say me down and said "remember to feel a sense of awe and dread if you ever see a 1200 year old Buddha statue wearing a white/gray robe popular among Indian Royality from that time". Pretty sure I would remember that conversation and it also wouldn't have been a gut reaction.
I didn't say I was opposed to the idea or that I was discounting it out of hand. I simply said I was skeptical (unwilling to believe something just because someone says so) and mentioned a way to think through it scientifically. Then You kind of bombarded me with a lot of claims and anecdotes.... Eek. Hold your fire lol
Those are all compelling things you list and it piques my curiosity further. But these things aren't rock solid evidence. Sure it's possible. But not very convincing. We can do better. So yeah, I'm curious to tease out what color associations are learned versus hardwired.
"What you have seen" never makes for unassailable evidence on its own. That's because you, like every other one of us humans, is affected by myriad cognitive biases that can skew your conclusions. (Which is how we got superstitions and old wives tales)
Also, it almost sounds like your argument is that the only way for these associations to occur is through being taught directly and explicitly. But there are other ways to learn things. Kids pick up on all kinds of unspoken things. When going, they often look to their parents for their reaction to some things. They learn a considerable amount of language without being explicitly taught. Musical associations happen without explicit teaching and that definitely varies by culture.
One can just seek evidence to support their conclusion and ignore all the other possible causes or counter examples or whatever else.
For example, cool light (by this you mean light on the blue end) means focus and warm light (on the red end) means relax. Hardwiring is one explanation. But simple learned associations could be another.
Assuming it is true, perhaps orange / yellow / red tints make us relaxed because of associations with sunsets and candlelight. Or something along those lines. Would humana who grew up with a star producing a different light spectrum have a different interpretation? Can people be trained with different associations?
The premise itself has to be tested as well. Is it truly Universal across many cultures? How many cultures have you proven this to hold for? And how did you prove it? By asking? Or by sound experiments? Were those experiments duplicated by others?
Oh also you are unlikely to remember much of anything prior to the age of 3 (give or take). So maybe your parents did have those conversations but at a very young age.
Maybe studies have been done about a lot of these things. I would be curious to see them. But now I'm tired and need to turn my brain off.
Fair, as long as it is fast action. You wouldn't want to have to make 3 movies of people walking.