this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2022
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Given that international auxiliary languages allow for more efficient cooperation; I think more people should consider using an easily learnable IAL, like Esperanto.

IALs would reduce the English dominance that gate-keeps software development to English persons; and hence allow more potential software developers to better develop software. The English language is mostly dominant in software development because of linguistic imperialism.

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[–] dwzero@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You raise some excellent points in your response, on every point besides 2 and 6 we are generally in agreement. 6 is outside of my experience, and so I don't have a meaningful opinion. 2 is one of the things I like about Esperanto, though you might well be right. I intend to study Mandarin, and since you mentioned it perhaps that will change my opinion regarding #2.

I did say that Esperanto isn't perfect, truly it is itself flawed. Even besides the points you made, even in the foundation there are irregularities which exist which are scarcely justifiable:

  • words which are redundant
  • some root words which are simply difficult to pronounce for anyone
  • the difficulties that arise from certain combinations of word parts
  • constructed words which work one way in a certain set of cases, a different way in another
  • the confusing resemblance to unrelated word constructions which some root words have

...to name but the things that come to mind.

And certainly if we're going by head-count there is little reason to learn Esperanto instead of a natural language. But there is more to a language then just the number of people who speak it, there is also the question of who your going to be talking to and why. In that analysis depending on the particulars, almost any language can be about equal, even a "toy" language like Esperanto.

But it must not be forgotten what the original subject is: the question of the future of software development. Arguing in favor of any national language is like arguing for the domination of a national system of measurement, instead of metric. Certainly you probably are right that the euro-centricity of Esperanto makes it ill suited as a international language at it's very core, and in this you and I would be in agreement, but so too in that way no national language should enter into the equation.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Any second language used only for programming purposes is going to be doomed from the outset anyway. I work in a Chinese engineering firm. They work with Chinese people (and me). They sell their products to Chinese firms. What possible incentive could they have to make all their engineers use a different language than Mandarin to communicate in? If they grow to the point that international markets are a concern, they'll have to i18n their products anyway (because their customers won't be speaking some conlang!) and given the costs of that, updating the design documents in another language is a minor cost.

Conlang IALs are a solution in search of a problem for an overwhelming number of professionals. They present a high-cost initial barrier of entry (the time it takes to learn the conlang to fluency) with a very low payout in the short- and medium-term for almost all involved people. And even if the engineers in question did learn the conlang do you genuinely believe they'll use it when doing work among other speakers of their own language? Do you genuinely believe the conlang will be the primary communication tool?

Idealism is a good thing. A great thing. Provided that it is, in some fashion, compatible with reality. A conlang IAL for programming is not compatible with reality.

[–] Amicchan@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Any second language used only for programming purposes is going to be doomed from the outset anyway.

Not if it's consistently used by everyone.

I work in a Chinese engineering firm. They work with Chinese people (and me). They sell their products to Chinese firms. What possible incentive could they have to make all their engineers use a different language than Mandarin to communicate in?

They don't and that's fine.

If they grow to the point that international markets are a concern, they'll have to i18n their products anyway and given the costs of that, updating the design documents in another language is a minor cost.

Yep, including conlangs.

Conlang IALs are a solution in search of a problem for an overwhelming number of professionals.

In search of what problem?

They present a high-cost initial barrier of entry (the time it takes to learn the conlang to fluency) with a very low payout in the short- and medium-term for almost all involved people.

Where's your proof?

Learning English and Mandarin also has a high-cost initial barrier of entry; IALs are however better designed for inter linguistic speakers.

And even if the engineers in question did learn the conlang do you genuinely believe they'll use it when doing work among other speakers of their own language?

yes.

Do you genuinely believe the conlang will be the primary communication tool?

IALs, yes.