Ah the argument from authority... this exact reasoning is I believe why christofascism is taking such a root in American politics. A pet still knows when it is being abused. Having rights and power over others does not make actions moral. This is basically a might makes right line of thinking except God becomes humanities bully.

You may not believe morality is subjective, but I do, and I define moral actions as led by my inner compass. You may choose to call your inner compass the holy spirit and assign gods divinity to it, making your interpretation of gods actions closer to divine authority, but it holds no more importance than anybody elses interpretation or convictions.

To think that any being would be exempt from judgement or morality based on their power or position of authority is in my opinion the weakest logic of all. By this logic, abortion should be a non starter for theists after all, my house my rules, right? No it turns out there is no equivalent logic to explain the relationship between man and god. All sinful humans must follow your inner compass whereas any command or action attributed to god is exempt from reproach, and since you inner compass is actually the holy spirit, it gives you or your interpretation of your favorite book dominion over all others without the need for any self reflection whatsoever. This way you can attribute acts that are considered evil by every other daily metric as good so long as you can delude yourself that it is gods will.

"Didnt you go out and do all these things in my name?"

If god exists and provided you free will and the holy spirit, why then would you not be expected to use it to discover more about god? To develop discernment instead of chalking up inconsistencies in the messaging to gods will and all actions dictated by men as "acts of God". Isn't it possible that the idea of god of the Bible or the Quran or whatever is inherently flawed and twisted to serve the desires of man? That god, if real, is not depicted accurately in any single book in the history of man?

I cant stand these ray comfort style gotcha arguments like no actually we don't have to follow logic or morality because divinity and anyone who questions our assertions has the absolute arrogance to spit in gods face.

[–] Knightfox@lemmy.one -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm not trying to make an argument in support of religion or god, I'm making an argument that moral (subjective or objective) rationales do not validate or invalidate the existence of god. If god exists, then they do so whether you believe in them or not. If god exists and the supposed outcomes of not following their rules is true, then whatever judgements about them you have is irrelevant.

Is god evil because it allows bad things to happen? Yeah and so what? You can think god sucks and is unfair or unjust, be the better person and refuse to worship or believe all you want. If you don't meet their magic requirements for the good ending then you get the bad ending no matter how much more moral you are.

I think that trying to have a philosophical debate about the morality or ethics of god(s) is asinine since if a god exists your objections to it have literally no value.

[–] Seasm0ke@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Only you are not having a philosophical debate with god about your moral judgments, ill be the first to admit that gods opinion matters fuck all in a philosophical debate about god you are debating the ideas of the person who believes in god. This idea that god can and will always be good and just simply because he may exist outside of any human measurement is absolute bullshit for all the reasons I listed above and more. The belief of god and the claim the god wills or controls every action and event can be tested.

Any claim to the contrary is just cowardly evasion or desperation

[–] Knightfox@lemmy.one -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Dude, you're literally inventing shit. I never said that,

"that god can and will always be good and just simply because he may exist outside of any human measurement is absolute bullshit for all the reasons I listed above and more. The belief of god and the claim the god wills or controls every action and event can be tested."

I'm making the statement that if you think that god doesn't exist because god doesn't meet your definition of good or moral, you're missing the mark. If god exists they exists outside of whether you believe in them. If god exists and their power is what is attributed to them then your opinions, however morally well founded they may be, are completely worthless.

The idea that you can test god's will or that god controls our every action cannot be tested unless you assume that god is a benevolent being. If god doesn't care that you kill your neighbor as long as it doesn't effect their long term plan then killing your neighbor doesn't disprove there is a god.

If god turns out to be a 7th dimensional being playing around with a 3rd/4th dimensional ant farm, that can just destroy us in a snap then all your moral high ground is for shit. If god is real our relationship to it is the same as ants in an ant farm to the guy outside the glass wall. If they fry us with the magnifying glass it makes no difference if they are good, evil, just, unjust, right, or wrong.

If you don't believe in god then cool. If you think god is unworthy of worship and belief then cool, but if so you're not an atheist because you believe in god. If you believe in god, but think they are unworthy of worship you opinion doesn't matter because you're an ant in an antfarm. The lesson here is either stop believing in god or fucking shut up about it.

[–] Seasm0ke@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Im making shit up? You opened with this

I'd like to propose a thought. 1.) God makes rules 2.) Following those rules is good 3.) Breaking those rules is evil

For the record I'm agnostic, and I don't believe in a monotheistic god. One that is asserted as omnipotent, benevolent, omnipresent, omniscient etc. The Christian god is the one which the moral argument was presented against which does assume a god of perfect good. I personally think if god exists they would encompass the lowest common denominator of spiritual beliefs and likely be devoid of a singular personality.

Just like your original point about this supposed moral immunity derived from authority, the subject is not so black and white. You're not either an athiest or a believer depending on where you argue from. Every believer in one god is also an athiest to another.

I don't have to believe in "your" god to point out the bad argument in support of god. I dont have to acknowledge gods existence to defend against believers imposing their beliefs of god onto me. I also don't have to stay quiet while somebody takes a pulpit and cries about how their omnibenevolent 7th dimension king of kings gets a bad rap from everyone who doesn't see just how magnificient their being is because theyre too hung up on the silly notion that a being of perfect good would not order kidnapping virgins to take as child brides, or genocide every Canaanite, command bears to eat children who teased a bald guy and so on.

I'm making the statement that if you think that god doesn't exist because god doesn't meet your definition of good or moral, you're missing the mark. If god exists they exists outside of whether you believe in them. If god exists and their power is what is attributed to them then your opinions, however morally well founded they may be, are completely worthless.

Your statement doesn't exist in a void!! People dismissing god as immoral is based on a thousand years of philosophy such as Thomas Aquinas, Immanuel Kant, and CS Lewis asserting that god is the source of all morality.

People arent starting with god isnt moral therefore he doesn't exist, as you claim in this strawman. arguments for god are been presented as omnibenelovent and the source of all morality, god does things that are agreed upon as immoral, therefore the moral arguments for god are wrong and god still likely doesn't exist. Pointing out contradictions between the actions of god in the Bible and the claims made about gods also doesn't make an athiest a believer. More desperate gotcha bullshit.

The lesson here is either stop believing in god or fucking shut up about it.

So much for that high school paper. You very clearly don't have any grounds to hand out lessons.