Not sure why this got removed from 196lemmy..blahaj.zone but it would be real nice if moderation on Lemmy gave you some sort of notification of what you did wrong. Like an automatic DM or something
this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2023
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That's exactly the point. For example, people used to think chattel slavery in the US was morally acceptable because they viewed black people as inferior. But today we would say that black people are not inferior and that they were mistaken. The moral relativist would say that slavery was okay to do back then because that's what the people agreed on. Do you still agree with the moral relativist?
I agree that morals are relative considering there are a ton of people who still believe black people are inferior and also places with slavery.
Something can be morally objective if every single person in the world believes it but I can't think of a single example of that.
That would be the case if morals were something we can measure outside the human experience. Unfortunately there is no way to measure if something is moral or not outside how someone feels about it.
Not really, if absolutely every single human at all stages of life believed it's morally good to spit in their palm every day that would be an objective moral truth, there would be no subjectivity to it. For morals though no such thing exists.
You don't need to be able to observe it externally to distinguish it. For example i can say I have a conscious experience and that would be objectively true even though we have a pretty minimal understanding on what that really is or how to measure it.
You can measure brain activity but not consciousness. Consciousness is most likely an emerging property of brain activity but we can't really say more with out current understanding of it.
What? I never said consciousness in supernatural, just that we have a poor understanding of it and no way to measure it. I was just using it as an example of an objective statement for something we can't externally confirm.
Again, this is completely irrelevant to my original point...
What we consider consciousness to be is pretty broad, though self-awareness is a common one and that can't be measured with any current instrument.
As I literally previously said: self-awereness
My original point still stands: You can make objective statements about things we can't measure. Also you can't measure self-awareness.
No, that's exactly what I mean by self-awareness and yes we have done tests on it but there is no conclusive way to show and measure it currently. Yes I can make objective statements on that subject which was my point like 20 comments back.
You can ever solve a mystery you can't properly identify to begin with.
People feel like something more than physical is going on. Rather than see it as a natural consequence of abstract thinking and self-reflection, they jump to the conclusion that this sense is supernatural.
Science isn't in the business of examining vague hunches. The first step to getting an answer is deciding what there is to explain. Our current theories on the brain are compatable with people thinking about their own thoughts, and even having emotional reactions to that process.
Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing contradicting the scientific worldview has happened. So what is there to explain?
That doesn't mean it does not exist though. It simply means we can't measure it.
I'm not saying that, just that there's no outside way of verifying if something is true or not in case of morals. I don't believe objective morals exist because you can't find a single moral stance shared among all of humanity not because you can't measure the truth of that stance.
Is suffering good or bad? I don't mean that in a specific context, but any type of suffering in itself.
I can't really say about all kinds of suffering, it really depends on context.
It's like asking if all love is good. There are so many situations I can imagine it could be good or bad or even neutral.
With out of context I mean in it's nature. Imagine you have to cut off someone's leg who doesn't like pain and won't profit from experiencing it during the amputation now or in the future, is it better to do it in the way it causes the most pain or the way it causes less pain, when it leads to exactly the same result?
Oh in that context it's absolutely worse. And in a complete vaccum where no action or even existence precedes or continues from that one moment of suffering it's also bad.
Though because such a vacuum does not exist in reality suffering can be good. For example choosing to suffer to bring about some good outcome would be good. Or suffering that builds character for some future event. Also some forms of suffering are enjoyable to some people.
Yeah of course. But that doesn't change that it's objective. I don't mean suffering just as in physical pain.
Yea, the fact that there are a billion things that can be considered suffering makes it even more subjective since one form of suffering may be someone else's enjoyment.
How is suffering morally objective?
If you hit two people with a stick, one enjoys it and the other does not, than clearly one is suffering the other isn't. That's not morally objective it's a biological reality.
Do you think pain is real?
Exactly, physical pain and other forms of suffering are an objective reality. You can, in theory at last, decide objectively whether any decision will lead to more or less pain immediately and in the future.
If you look at ethics you could assume the only axiom it has is that when comparing more pain or less pain, less pain is better. This is even independent from circumstance if you consider all suffering now and in the future that are consequences of an observed decision.
In my opinion that makes the decision whether something is morally bad or good objective in it's nature.
You could still in theory measure it if you also measure whether and to what extent the idea that pain is a virtue leads to more or less suffering in the life of the person and others directly and indirectly affected.
Otherwise what you suggest is that consequences don't exist if we can't foresee them. But obviously the consequences will objectively exist, whether or not we can measure them.
Imagine you could look at the whole universe, all factors in all of it's future. It's an objective reality, if you agree that suffering is real, that every option will either entail more, less or the same amount of suffering than the other options.
That's what I am asking, is the option that entails more suffering better or the one that entails less suffering?
It's not subjective, though. Morality is an objective reality, that can, in theory, be compared between any two options and there would always be an objective answer which of the options are better or worse or the same. You just think there is no objective reason to follow those options which are morally better, but that's a different question.
I think you confuse cultural norms and rules with the abstract concept of ethics. When you question whether or not something is objectively morally better or worse than something else, that's independent of different current norms and values.
It's the same as maths. If you have two black boxes one with three and one with fifteen potatoes in them, the box with the fifteen potatoes in it will objectively have more potatoes. It doesn't matter if you can look into the boxes, like potatoes or if some people consider "less is more" or if they do not have a concept of mathematics. If you ask whether or not 15 potatoes are more than 3 this will always be an objective truth since numbers are defined by math and that a bigger number is bigger than a smaller number is an axiom of mathematics.
If the black boxes would instead contain "suffering" it doesn't matter what makes the suffering grow bigger or smaller. Someone who likes pain or for whom pain leads to greater outcome down the road will put less suffering into the box. It will still be an objective amount. Independent of whether or not you can measure it.