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Why does thermodynamics laws look like a tautology ? (lemmy.ca)

submitted 1 year ago by A_A@lemmy.ca to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.ca

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1^st^ law of thermodynamics :
There is something that will always be the same.
2^nd^ law of thermodynamics :
Everything else always changes and never will be what it was before.

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[–] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago

Setting aside for a moment your (purposeful?) mistaken rendition of 2 of the 4 Laws...

I like to characterize them this way:

0th Law - Everyone is playing this game (definition)
1st Law - You can't win
2nd Law - You can't break even
3rd Law - You can't quit playing

These aren't rules some entity has given us. As best we can determine, these just describe the way the universe works as regards energy. But instead of everyone having to discover them over and over or in every new proposed application, our Very Smart People have discovered them and recorded them.

I don't see anything in there that's along the lines of "this is true because it's true." The laws of thermo aren't provable except by observation, because they are the first principles. If there were first principles from which we could derive the laws, those would be the laws.

That's not to say they don't exist, because they might. We just haven't found them yet, if they do. I have gone through the mathematical foundation but I'm on the fence as to whether that counts as a "first principle" since it has a sort of "chicken & egg" problem.