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!ukpolitics@lemm.ee appears to have vanished! We can still see cached content from this link, but goodbye I guess! :'(
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It's Labour that really needs to get the ball rolling on this. I fear it needs to be forced through Parliament and the Tories definitely won't. That leaves only Labour capable of doing it with support from SNP and Lib Dems and Greens.
My big fear is that Starmer will talk cute about PR to get into office but then he'll quietly ditch it for a generation "now is not the time". Yes it fucking is! It's about better representing the country democratically you double breasted oaf! Now is precisely the right time.
FPTP benefits large incumbent already established parties AKA the Tories and Labour. Neither will vote to decrease any perceived majority they might have. And round and round we go! You can understand it from the Tories..... it's just disappointing from Labour.
@Greenseer @mannycalavera @SubArcticTundra @marcas AKA: Labour exists to keep the tories in power. But yes, because #PR will also exclude Labour from a parliamentary majority for ever. That they, more than the tories, would nevertheless be in government most of the time isn't enough for them.
Anyway, Labour and Tories could win a majority in #PR any time they want: They just have to get more people to vote for them than against them. What a funny idea! 😱
@happy @Greenseer @mannycalavera @SubArcticTundra @marcas yes, this is the labour leadership being the problem here, not the party as a whole. except, if the party ultimately can't require that the leadership represents them, it doesn't really make a difference to the rest of us what they feel.
@Greenseer @mannycalavera @SubArcticTundra ✅😀
Labour will never get the ball rolling on this. It's the Lib Dems that will need to do it, and they'll only get the opportunity in a hung parliament with a Labour minority.
Surely if Labour has a landslide and there are enough dissenters within the party, couldn't they still find a majority with the SNP and an now stronger Lib Dem party?
In terms of theoretical numbers, sure. But 1) the Labour government will never put this motion forward i.e. dead before it's started and 2) even if they were shamed into doing this they would whip so hard that there won't be any dissent. So it doesn't matter what the SNP and Lib Dem support would have been. That's what is so utterly depressing about this. This should be front and centre in Labour's drive for election. They can even spin it as a way of keeping the union together. But they'll say more about ULEZ before they say anything about this. A generation wasted.... again.
Oh, that really is depressing. I suppose our only hope is that the voices asking for it grow loud enough then... I'm too young to remember last time – do you think PR has become more of a mainstream issue in recent years? Because I've heard articles in the guardian as well as a people around me mentioning it
I don't think it has. The previous AV referendum had the same level of fringe interest too around a similar stage to this. The Lib Dems were the ones to push it through in coalition and against heavy opposition from the Tories (who watered it down) and veiled opposition from Labour (who like the EU question didn't do jack shit and sat on the fence) so it absolutely tanked. It didn't help that thousands of student voters saw this as an opportunity to "fuck tuition fees" and vote against anything supported by the Lib Dems. Since then I don't think a lot has changed in terms of coverage or main stream support. And, you know, that other referendum happened....
For example: how often do you hear about this on the daily news cycle versus hearing about anything Brexit related? Instead of XYZ news story can be partly blamed on Brexit do you ever hear ABC news story might have been different and more equitable under PR? Literally every single political and economic story needs to be about this for a sustained amount of time before this becomes mainstream again. Or Labour needs to swallow their pride and force the issue for the sake of the country.
The leadership sat on the fence, but nearly half of the parliamentary Labour Party actively campaigned with the Tories against electoral reform.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/dec/29/no-to-av-support-114-labour-mps
Oh shit, you're right. Somehow I'd softened it in my head. I think we can see how this is going to go again. It's incredibly incredibly disheartening. We'll be trapped in tribal politics forever.
Amongst the names for No to AV / supporter of FPTP this name pops up: Rachel Reeves. Where have seen that before 🧐?
Not on the list, but Andy Burnham was Labour's election campaign coordinator at the time and played the critical role in getting Labour's party machinery to ignore the referendum (which is what allowed all these Labour MPs to freely campaign for FPTP).
So I've been very sceptical about his Damascene conversion to electoral reform now that he's in a job that has no influence over the matter...
Oh dear
By forced through parliament do you mean passed without the PM's approval? Because that's the way I see it happening, although I'm not so sure now that I see Starmer pruning MPs ahead of the next election
No sorry I don't mean that. I mean Labour needs to whip their MPs into voting for PR. The whole Labour machine needs to get behind it. Which they're not it would seem. Starmer will be PM at the time and he also needs to make a strong case and be passionate about it. Think BoJo and Brexit but with an actually sensible idea.