this post was submitted on 19 Oct 2024
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I can't predict the future if thats what you mean.
Theres plenty of evidence that reducing meat production where possible will help everyone. Theres plenty of evidence that at least a mostly plant based diet is better for personal health for most people.
Less animals suffering is a plus too but you could leave it out and still come to the conclusion that there is something behind plant based and partially plant based diets.
this is a nonsequitur. my guess is you have tried plant based diet, and the amount of animal slaughter has only increased: chart
We've had this argument like twice already.
I never claimed that me being a vegan would end animal suffering.
If you would admit that the line on your graph would go up quicker if all vegetarians and vegans went back to eating meat, then you have to also admit it would go up slower if more people went vegan, vegetarian, or simply ate 25% less meat than they normally do.
You must be able to see the math there? Do I need to send you university debate level arguments? I can find them for you if you want.
i'm not interested in debate. i'm interested in provable claims.
Should I use another commodity that saw reduced demand, which caused the supply to dwindle? Asbesthos? Does that work? Maybe cigarrettes?
What kind of proof do you want and I'll go find it for you how's that.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tobacco-production?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL
edit: i don't know how you can quantify the demand for tobacco, and i don't know what causal mechanism can explain this chart.
what you're presenting is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc. both of those declined in production following the introduction of color television as well. we can't very well say that color caused a reduced production. in fact, you haven't actually presented any evidence that less asbethos or cigarettes are being produced.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5877076/
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tobacco-production?tab=table&time=earliest..1997
it appears that the plan of creating government regulation is effective at stopping production, and no causal link to demand is outlined in your hastily-googled abstract.
And you think that regulation was pushed by people who sell or smoke cigarettes, and by those that mine or use asbesthos?
i have a high degree of certainty that there were cigarette smokers who want regulation, and industrial workers who wanted to stop asbestos. if we were to look at congressional testimony in the usa, it would probably show just that.
but the other user isn't saying we should only rely on meat-eaters. most meat-eaters do think that animals should be treated humanely (i recognize their definition is at odds with yours), and would likely back stricter humane slaughter regulations. you seem to be saying that's not good enough, and i find it understandable that the other user has become quite jaded about helping animals at all in the face of your purism.
There were smokers trying to ban cigarettes or regulate cigarettes?
What regulations were active smokers pushing for that would affect their ability to continue smoking?
I know there were victims of misinformation who didnt know there would be consequences, but they aren't smokers anymore by the time they are in front of congress talking through a voice box.
Maybe you can talk me through an example.
i would bet that if you lose your larynx, there isn't much reason to give up smoking. you already basically got the worst deal. this is all hypothetical and guesswork anyway. maybe you find it unbelievable, but i don't (of course this should feel familiar). it makes me uncomfortable to speculate this much, and i have even less interest in tracking down the specific facts about tobacco than i do in becoming vegan (take that how you will).
it's clear that regulation has been able to preceed a decline in use, even against powerful and profitable industries. it's not clear that a only partially-concerned (since veganism seeks to exclude all exploitation, not limited to diet) ideological boycott has any impact at all.
If popular opinion is what leads to regulation, then how is it best to go about changing public opinion so more and more people are for regulating the meat and dairy industries?
There are vegan activists who expose things about those industries that aren't public knowledge, and that seems to move public opinion to a degree, at least locally/regionally.
Right now regulating meat and dairy is a deeply unpopular opinion no matter which party you look at, at least in the US.
i'd like proof of a causal mechanism by which choosing to buy beans has caused meat production to decline. i don't think you can find any such causal mechanism.