635
We'll have a long memory as things get worse for working class Americans, minorities and women
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2024
635 points (74.0% liked)
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No, the blame lies squarely on the DNC for deliberately ignoring the loud and clear message from third party voters that genocide is a red line in the sand. The blame further lies with the liberals supporting a decaying Empire and never lifting a finger to help anyone, just showing up at the ballot box every 4 years while the US commits manmade horrors beyond comprehension.
Join an org, like the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO), this mess can't be undone by supporting the Dems harder.
Unfortunately, it's not a "red line in the sand," no matter how much you keep repeating it. While a majority of people in the US disapprove of Israel's actions, a tiny fraction of voters (less than 2%) consider it their primary voting issue, an even smaller fraction of that number would consider withholding their vote or voting third party over it.
While you may not like it, it's not the major concern for American voters. If you'd like to withhold your vote or vote third party about it, be my guest. The only likely scenario that would result from that would helping Trump get elected. If you're honestly concerned about Palestinians, you'd be wise enough to not enable an even worse situation for them. There's a reason Israel's leadership wants Trump to win and encourages the left to revolt about Palestine.
You're getting played by Israel, who is using your short-sighted feels to enable them to enact long-term reals, which in their case might very well be the full extermination and displacement of all of Palestine. To truly bring that into being, they, at they very least, need Trump to win. Fundamentally you are siding with Israel over Palestinians, and the immediate sense of moral superiority you feel about it is precisely how you're being manipulated.
Read your history. Using the left's lack of political pragmatism to aid in hard-right political takeover isn't new. Your Bush-ist "you're either with us or against us" simplification of the world and political calculus makes you an easy mark. You are, quite literally, a tool of Israel at this point.
And the best part, from Israel's point of view, is you get to feel good about it. Win-win (for Israel). You're trying to march Palestine right into the grave while telling them you're helping them the whole way.
It's a red line in the sand if voters make it so.
Secondly, the idea that Israel is depending on the Repblicans winning is hilarious. Biden has given them everything they want, including approving the Lebanon invasion. The genocide is bipartisan.
I think you're going to by sadly surprised about how bad things can get. The limits of your long-term imagination and the narrowed view upon which you prevail are a little surprising. But, then again, you're literally helping the Israeli state, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
You're signing off on everything the US Empire and Israel wants, what's surprising is that you can't see that.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night while you help Israel commit genocide.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night while you help Israel commit genocide.
You've reached the "I know you are but what am I" level of childishness. That speaks volumes.
You failed to make any coherent point, and everything you said could be reflected back because of it. I already explained that the Dems are giving Israel everything they want, you just played ignorant like Trump has fascist magic on his side to really help the IDF out.
you're a one trick pony. you just say "read marx" and strut around like that meant something. people don't have to read marx to have valid opinions. i hope you can grow up to discover other things.
Believe it or not, I only tell people to read Marx when it's relevant, like when someone tries to pretend to know what Marxists think. For the majority of my arguments, I don't need to reference Marx, and answer accordingly.
How will trump be worse for Palestinians? Give an example.
WoahWoah, If you truly beleive in minimizing the murder of the Palestinians, why isnt pressuring Harris to change her policy position something you'll support? Why get on here and trashtalk progressives into letting Harris have her cake and eat it too?
Have you ever wondered what thoughts must go through a person's mind after making just the worst decision in their lives? Like a father who fell asleep at the wheel because he didn't want to stop at a motel to save a few bucks, and now he's in the ICU watching his wife and child slowly dying in front of him?
That's gonna be you if Trump gets elected. Good luck with that.
Your idea of the "worst decision of their lives" is forced on Palestinians daily because of the party you support.
you're a fool or a Russian propagandist.
this election will make waves of change across the world.
to anyone taking this fool seriously I'll ask you this, where was your conscience when the Uighur people were enslaved.
where was your conscience when Iran was killing woman for standing up for their rights?
where was your conscience when Russia was killing gay men just for being gay?
where was your conscience when North Korea was starving and killing its people?
why didn't America intervene then? why didn't you vote your conscience then?
by listening to propaganda like above, you're not voting your conscience, you're voting for whatever the propagandists tell you to vote for.
vote to save democracy because we've only got the one, and there won't be a second chance.
Theres a big difference between aiding a genocide vs not showing up to stop one. Are you pretending we are merely being neutral in this Israeli genocide? Thats absurd at best and dishonest at worst.
Progressives are asking for the weapons shipments to stop, and Harris gets the votes to win.
ok, I suppose you don't support the Uighur genocides by not purchasing any goods in the world market? I mean, if you DO then that would just make you a hypocrite, right?
genocide is genocide. the Uighur genocide has been thoroughly documented and has been going on for about...15 years now? they only started forcing them into internment camps since 2017 though. which reminds me.
where was the outrage when Trump was running in 2016? where was the outrage while he was in office? where was the outrage when Trump continued to do nothing to help those poor Uighur slaves?
did you know that in China you can literally buy organs from Uighur slaves against their will? they're trafficked as sex slaves, they're beaten, they're forced to work to their death, they are murdered just for existing.
so where has all the outrage been for 7 years? oh wait....I get it, it's too inconvenient because it doesn't progress the story you want to push.
so I'll ask more bluntly this time, why is it ok for China to have a genocide and not Israel? is it because they aren't the right Muslims? or is it because it doesn't fit the narrative you're pushing?
Progressives aren't asking the Dems to commit to even trying to stop the genocide. Progressives are asking Dems to stop actively facilitating and arguably participating in it.
you're just moving the goal posts again.
tell me why it's ok for China to genocide the Uighur muslims and it's not ok for Israel to genocide Hamas muslims?
where is the outrage for allowing e-retailers like Temu, Wish, or Shein to operate within the US? where is the outrage for these companies using forced Uighur slave labor to manufacture their products?
what about the slave labor that places like Apple use to manufacture their products?
all you have to do is answer the question.
Why do Hamas Muslims matter more than Uighur Muslims right now?
I'm not moving any goalposts. Your entire argument assumes that the US is providing military aid to China, knowing that said aid is used to commit genocide. They aren't.
Your use of the term "Hamas Muslims," however, is very telling.
what a weak scarecrow. just because Hamas is the brotherhood doesn't mean you can't identify them as Muslim. that's exactly why Israel is attacking them in the first place, right? that makes it relevant to the question that you refuse to answer.
The US aids the Chinese genocide of Uighur Muslims by allowing their economic participation in western markets with products and services manufactured and supported by Uighur slave labor.
how is that any different than supporting Israeli attacks on Hamas Muslims?
but don't worry, I'll ask again.
I'll take a guess to the answer since nobody has the nerve to admit it.
Uighur Muslim persecution is convenient to popularist notion of high yield and cheap products. the labor they provide supports Chinese interests and provides highly scalable resources for their war machine. the same machine that directly benefits Russia and the ongoing struggle for power that Putin and Xi are attempting to destroy the world over.
By implying Americans should reject democrats and republicans based on their inaction on the atrocities committed by Israel it only serves to support the goals set forward by the Russian and Chinese dictatorships. not to influence the 2024 election, but to sow the seeds of confusion and inspire mistrust in the America system of government.
you said it yourself.
"progressives" don't want anyone to participate in a system they deem not acceptable enough. -- moving the goal posts
"progressives" want Americans to pivot to any third party candidate in protest against the American government. -- manufacturing chaos
"progressives" want Americans to believe that a system they alone can't change is corrupted and should be dismantled. -- sowing the seeds of mistrust
if you're not a tool that's being used to support the Russian and Chinese agenda, you're a fool drinking the koolaid.
My God, you are just completely insufferable. Serves me right for engaging with you.
Hamas is not the same as Palestine. Israel is committing genocide on Palestinians. There is a difference between America allowing Chinese goods and industry in America and America directly providing military aid that Israel is using to commit genocide on Palestinians. And your conflating Palestinians and Hamas is ridiculously ignorant at best, and intentional at worst.
so you admit that the progressive agenda is full support of the Chinese and Russian military complex.
you flat out refuse to acknowledge the Uighur genocides because it doesn't fit your narrative.
I admit I was a fool for trying to communicate with someone so willing to put words in other's mouths. I should know better.
Tell you what, you let me know when the US ships weapons to China that help them commit the genocide, gives China gobs of "aid money," and repeatedly provides cover for China at the UN. Because until then, the US won't be treating China the way it's treating Israel. Yes, both are bad. One shows far more complicity than the other.
Are you trolling?
Yeah dude, it would totally make sense to listen to all 3% of those third party voters over the 97% of people who aren't stupid enough to throw their vote away in such a dumb fashion. That's how you win elections!
about 1/3 of americans of voting age do not vote. its not just that 3% who are unmoved by the two options served up by the decaying US political system
If the Democrats don't want votes, then it's on them when they lose, not voters.
tankies gonna tank.
Someday I hope you'll get over your hatred of Marxism and Marxists.
doubtful. I used to be one.
hate what you know.
unfortunately Marxist have too great of a fear of what they don't know and are unable to evolve past their comfort zone.
look at what your Marxist movements have become today and tell me it's EXACTLY what Karl Marx had in mind.
besides, you think you can take down a system without participating in it? win the people, break the system. Marxist can't win the people because it has a tumor the size of Russia attached to it that's been spewing hate and dissent against the system for decades. nobody will trust it for another couple decades.
so yeah, I hate Marxist propaganda today.
You were never a Marxist if you think along those lines, lmao. Explain Dialectical and Historical Matetialism, the basics of Marxism.
Because you can't. Marxists are entirely different from fascists, read Blackshirts and Reds.
nobody's going to do that. i guess we're all dumb because we don't like your favorite band. grow up.