While I appreciate the plight of the Palestinians and am disgusted by the resumption of Israeli attacks, Palestine was at no time a recognized nation on the broader international stage. While a people defending their rights to live on their ancestral homeland is the same everywhere, that much is true, the details paint very different pictures every step after that.

And details are very important if you don't want your shit fucked up.

[–] rostad@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

More countries recognize Palestina than those who dont.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Worthy point.

[–] amanneedsamaid@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why does it matter if Palestine was an established country beforehand? It was conquered by Britain and France who decided (via antisemetic reasoning ["The Jewish Problem"]) to establish a state for the Jewish population. The entire idea of an immigrant group (Jews) being handed their own country on land that is in no way theirs is a totally different scenario than "people defending their rights to live on their ancestral homeland", as the reasoning to establish Israel is totally justified by its supporters. No one thinks the actions taken by Americans which led to the plight of American Indians was at all justified for any reasons other than greed.

My issue with seeing Israels sitation in the way you desribe is that some people see nothing wrong with, or even see positive aspects in what was a discriminatory, arguably racist action driven by even more racism (antisemitism would be more accurate for the former.

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Legitimate arguments. I'm trying to avoid engaging at length in this thread though, beyond my initial criticism of the chosen title and stated reasoning.

The reason for this is I am fully aware this is a passionate topic, and I have no interest in getting bogged down in a debate over it, as I have no wish to convert anyone else to my stance.

Thus I find myself reluctant to even challenge basic falsehoods, as it's just going to make my inbox even busier. I am well versed in history, I'm unlikely to personally learn anything from this discussion. But more importantly, again, I have no desire to convince or educate anyone either.

So, I respectfully must decline your questions. Though I do understand where you are going with them, and do have reasons for not being very swayed by them. These are not in any way new debates to me, I've had them for decades. I just don't want another.

[–] psychothumbs@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that's pretty much the opposite of this author's view on capitalism actually.

What's the significance of that difference in international recognition? Certainly makes a difference to the facts on the ground, but not really to which side you should be supporting.

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was using the capitalism analogy to try to illustrate my disagreement with basing one's choice of who they support off of any single principle. Any flaws in that principle will make the logical structure you're basing your overall value system on unstable.

I do not base my support for anyone or anything off of any single principle. Things are too complicated for that in my opinion. Israel is a military ally, and we have a responsibility to support them to a certain degree because of this. Much like Turkey, they are a very imperfect ally, but they have their value.

This stands in the way of my ability to fully support the Palestinian people where it does not stand in the way of my support for the Ukrainians. Thus I disagreed with OP's title. While I do condemn Israel's behavior, I cannot in good faith categorize them mentally or emotionally as I would Russia.

[–] psychothumbs@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Israel is a military ally of who? They United States? You do not have a responsibility to support countries that your country makes military alliances with. And in that case in particular, Israel is a giant weight around America's neck, endlessly drawing it into conflicts while giving back nothing of value. Even if you don't care at all about Palestinians, pure geopolitics recommends the US cut Israel loose.

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Eh, no I don't think so.

[–] gimulnautti@mastodon.green -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

@Candelestine @psychothumbs Oh yes, the details. The Israel-Palestine conflict’s bloodiness must owe in part to it also being one of the stages where the cold war served to make heavy weaponry readily available, with both sides being heavily armed by either side of the larger conflict.

I hope the days of the cold war never return. Painting a picture of Ukraine as cold war puppet state is as wrong as painting Palestine as puppet of USSR.

[–] psychothumbs@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Huh? When did anyone ever give the Palestinian side weapons of mass destruction?

[–] gimulnautti@mastodon.green 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

@psychothumbs Sure, if you don’t consider rocket launchers weapons of mass destruction. Let’s call them self-propelled artillery. I edited the original post so what I mean doesn’t get misrepsented. Thanks for the note!

[–] psychothumbs@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Right rocket launchers are definitely not weapons of mass destruction. WMDs are generally restricted to the categories of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, with even chemical being a bit of an edge case in terms of whether it really counts as "mass destruction."

Also I don't think the Soviets were ever giving the Palestinian resistance rocket launchers either, though not as sure about that as about the WMDs.

[–] Barafield@furcel.club -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@psychothumbs @gimulnautti Erm do you not support the jewish people's right to autonomy? Are we going to have a problem sir?

[–] psychothumbs@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't think Israel should disenfranchise the Palestinians in the occupied territories and deny Palestinians abroad the right to return in order to maintain a Jewish majority if that's what you mean. Is that a problem for you? I see this is your first post but your bio says "people who don't look like me don't deserve rights" so I'd guess we do have some issues.

[–] gimulnautti@mastodon.green 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@psychothumbs @Barafield Looks like we might have a troll in our hands 🤔

[–] Barafield@furcel.club -1 points 1 year ago

@gimulnautti @psychothumbs "Troll" is a very hurtful slur I am an incredibly serious person thank you very much!

[–] amanneedsamaid@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course. Thinking otherwise (Unless youre delusional and self-obsessed enough to be religiously zionist), would be pure hipocrasy.

[–] mcc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I support Ukraine and I just don't have much of a view of Palestine. Fight me, you can't make me stop supporting Ukraine just because I don't care about Palestine.

[–] amanneedsamaid@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Of course not, they're not mutually exclusive if your opinion on one is not really feeling that strongly. I think if you read about Israeli / Palestinian history, you would most likely side with Palestine (even if you still don't really care).

[–] Uniquitous@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago

Ukraine and Palestine have differing identities, histories, and circumstances; as do Russia and Israel. The title couldn't be more fallacious if it tried. Not bothering to delve any further.

[–] MicrosoftSam@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

This is so wrong

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