Canadians divided on talk of sexual orientation in schools, poll suggests : canada

[–] Glide@lemmy.ca 64 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A total of 1,518 Canadians participated in the web survey from Oct. 6 to Oct. 9. It cannot be assigned a margin of error because online polls are not considered truly.

Call me suspicious of the validity of an online poll. Aside from the fact that it doesn't share it's collection location or methods, online polls are substantially more vulnerable to brigading, astroturfing, or any other form of manipulation.

Global News should be fucking ashamed of itself. Imagine calling this cash-in of ad revenue on this hot topic issue, "journalism".

[–] PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The problem is the average person is not able to think past what they directly observe/experience. A single news article or meme on their Facebook feed is all that is needed to shape someone’s opinion on a topic forever.

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

single news article or meme on their Facebook feed

A single article that already conforms to their existing biases is all that it takes. A lot of people already feel like they own their kids, and an article that reframes that as "some people want to rob you of your ownership rights" will seal the deal

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

And some parents would want to know so they can support their kid, but are not answering with the context of other kids who have the opposite of supportive parents.

Like if my kid revealed something like this to a teacher I would want to know to help be supportive, but sure would not want teachers to be obligated to tell all parents because my wants are not as important as the safety of students with terrible parents.

[–] spacecowboy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

AND it emboldens them to make the rounds being a repeater.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I wish these polls would ask those same parents if they support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child.

Because here's the thing; if you think you deserve to know what's going on with your child, that's fine. That's a healthy thing to want to know. And if your child thinks there's something you should know, they'll tell you.

But if they haven't told you, it's because you've never given them any reason to believe that it would be safe to tell you, and that is entirely on you.

[–] introversion@universeodon.com 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

@Voroxpete @sik0fewl Many probably would. Many “parental rights” people view their children as more akin to property than people.

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Legally a parent is a custodian of a child which comes with rights and obligations along with a set of laws that regulate that relationship.

[–] errorgap@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, this is what gets me. Some parents are shitty, and I can see the issues with this as it's not unheard of for kids to be kicked out by homophobic parents after being outed, etc

But in the flip side, parents are legally responsible for their kids try increasingly cut off from the information that might be important for caring for those kids. They can ask a doctor to not disclose drug use, and apparently now a teacher not to disclose their gender identity decisions, leaving the parent might be clueless up to the point where it grows into a major issue and blindsides them.

Life isn't an episode of Leave It To Beaver. Not all kids have daily sit-downs with their parents where they discuss in detail everything about their lives. At a certain point, a lot of kids often start cutting out their parents thinking that it's part of establishing their own independence, and sometimes -especially with issues of sexuality/etc - they may be embarrassed to bring those forward to their parents.

Do parents have a right to know everything about their kids lives? Maybe not. Parents DO have a responsibility towards help educate their kids, help them navigate life and deal with major life changes and decisions. Educators have historically had a duty to keep parents informed of major developments in school which might affect their children or - if they have evidence the child is at-risk - to report cases of abuse to the appropriate authorities.

It's a tightrope, for sure, but expecting parents to do their job while potentially withholding vital information is not a good look either, and a lot of decisions from government (on both sides) lately are starting to have a "it's for the children" authoritarian feel.

I would support my kids regardless of how they choose to identify, their sexual orientation, etc, but when stuff is happening in regards to that I would damn well want to KNOW so that I can support them properly (possibly including learning more myself)

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My niece told her parents she was questioning her gender within a few months of realising it herself (according to her). And this kid is very much your typical closed off teenager who doesn't like to talk about anything that's going on in her life. But when it comes to the big, important shit like this, kids will share if they feel safe doing so.

If your kid doesn't want to tell you about something like this it's because you have failed to convince them that it's safe to share that kind of information with you.

My niece shared about this with her while family, basically right away, because she knows that all of us are openly supportive of trans and queer rights. She sees how we treat our queer and trans friends and partners. She knows without a shadow of a doubt that she will be loved and supported, so she was able to open up without fear.

If your kid doesn't feel the same way about you, you are the problem. Not them.

[–] errorgap@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago

See there you go, accusing people and putting words in their mouths. Nobody said kids were the problem (or even "a" problem) but not every kid feels the same way and that sometimes has little to do with parenting.

But feel free to go and accuse everyone of being a bad parent because things worked out for your niece. I know more than a few people who were damn good parents and their kids did eventually come out to them, but it took awhile and some digging to get to it while in the meantime those same kids were experiencing real issues in their social life because of it but their parents were unaware of why (though on most cases they know something was off). Once they finally got through it the dialog with their parents was great but it took quite awhile and needless suffering in the meantime. In one case the child was concerned that a rather religious family member (not the parent) would find out and ostracize them. When that family member did find out over the longer course they were actually very supportive, if a bit confused.

Having something in policy one way or the other is idiotic. Some kids might get beatings for having low grades, but that doesn't mean we don't decide to keep parents informed about academic performance, it means we should report unsafe home environments and use judgement in other cases.

If the teacher believes there's a real risk of harm then that should not feel compelled to share that information by gov't, but at the same time if something is potentially adversely affecting a child they shouldn't be compelled by black-and-white policy NOT to engage the parents, and early interaction may benefit all sides.

The "all kids who don't want to talk to their parents must be raised by abusive rednecks" is just a shitty argument. Even adults sometimes have hidden fears or worries that aren't bounded in reality, but allow unrealistic "what if" scenarios to hold them back. Kids are in a worse state with less personal experience and a bombardment of other people's opinions, situations, social media and many other factors than can bring anxiety even in the best of home environments.

[–] PenguinJuice@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do you have any children?

[–] introversion@universeodon.com 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@PenguinJuice @sik0fewl @Voroxpete Three.

[–] PenguinJuice@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ah, I see. So you're just playing devils advocate then.

[–] baconisaveg@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that's a great talking point, however I strongly doubt it's true.

I don't have kids so I've got no pony in this race, but I do have a dog. He's not property, I'm not his 'master', but he is 100% my responsibility, which is why I keep him on a leash whenever we leave the house. It's why I spend my time watching him when we're at a dog park instead of sitting on my phone like the other people there.

[–] introversion@universeodon.com 2 points 1 year ago

@baconisaveg I’m not the only person suspecting what “parents’ rights” means to many or most of the rightwing advocates of it. While I often side-eye people using Youtube to back up their claims, I do think this particular Youtuber succinctly lays out the often problematic use of “parents’ rights”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNOmFBw1I_M&t=6s

[–] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I wish these polls would ask those same parents if they support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child.

They did, and they do: "Just under half said that [teachers should have to notify parents] even if a child tells their teacher they don’t feel safe informing their parents."

[+] Rocket@lemmy.ca -7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That doesn't imply there is danger. If the child tells you that they are not safe around their parents, you're not going to exactly take that lightly. It's not "Oh, hi Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Given that you are such wonderful, upstanding people, contrary to your child's claims, we'd like to inform you that your child, formally known as Fred, has decided to change their name to Sue." You're going to be rolling in with child protective services and the full force the law behind you to investigate.

Perhaps you are suggesting that child protection doesn't work, but if that's the case, that needs to be publicized more as most people are under the impression that these services provided by the government are effective.

[–] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

What? I didn't say any of that. I didn't say anything about child protection. I was just saying what the poll asked and what people responded. I'm not saying anything about it or implying anything about child protection. I'm giving information directly from the article.

To be clear:

OP asked if people "support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child."

The poll asked if the teacher should have to inform the parents of a child's wishes even if the child says they don't feel safe telling their parents.

According to the article, just under half of respondents said yes, the teacher should have to notify parents even if the child doesn't feel safe doing so.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That's not quite the same thing.

My question is this; how many people would support outing a child if they knew, with absolute certainly, that doing so would cause the child harm.

Phrasing the question around the child's feeling of safety allows people to dismiss it as a non-issue, because they simply do not trust children to evaluate threats accurately.

But when it comes down to it, very few people would willingly subject a child to harm in the name of "parents rights." Not if they knew with absolute certainty that such harm would occur. And that's why I think this hypothetical is important. In reality you would almost never know, with absolute certainty, that a child would be in danger. But what this question establishes is that, fundamentally, the child's right to safety overrules the parent's so-called "right" to surveil their children.

Having established that, the rest comes down to the simple fact that an educator is not in a position to properly and fully assess whether a child would be at risk from that information being shared. Lacking that knowledge, they should err on the side of safety, which means trusting the child to make the decision. Information can always be shared, but it can never be unshared.

[–] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

I can agree that it's not exactly the same thing. But I think the implication of the question and answer are what you're looking for, and the direct question would skew the results because most people wouldn't admit they support abuse outright.

[–] Rocket@lemmy.ca -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Exactly. The child not feeling safe does not equate to there being endangerment, at least in theory, because the parents the child has raised concern about will become under the watchful eye of child protective services when the teacher raises that concern as well. We don't exist in a vacuum. You would not have one without the other.

Again, maybe you're trying to imply that those services are not effective. That very well may be true, but if that is the case, then that needs to be made known. Most people have faith in government services and are making decisions based on that understanding.

[–] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again, I'm not saying anything about those services or anything about what the teacher will actually do. I'm only talking about the question and the answer. If you disagree with how I'm reading the question or interpreting the answer, that's one thing, but stop reading into (or putting into) anything I'm saying to be about the effectiveness of child protective services or the morality of teachers.

[–] Rocket@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Again, I’m not saying anything about those services or anything about what the teacher will actually do.

They are not separable concepts. The are intrinsically linked. Again, we do not exist in a vacuum. You cannot talk about one without the other coming along for the ride.

I get that you like having a neat and orderly space where you can focus on one individual idea and forget that everything else exists. Who doesn't? But this poll is conducted in the real world, where people look at the entire world when considering things. They have no reason to be concerned about a parent inflicting harm based on revealing name information because they understand that the child raising concern about their safety around the parents will also trigger additional supports to address that issue.

Again, you may be trying to imply (since you won't speak to it directly) that those supports are not effective. That very well may be true, but if that is the case, then that needs to be made known. Most people have faith in government services and are making decisions based on that understanding.

In summary: Your original comment doesn't address the comment it is in reply to. It fails on faulty logic.

[–] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

They have no reason to be concerned about a parent inflicting harm based on revealing name information because they understand that the child raising concern about their safety around the parents will also trigger additional supports to address that issue.

This is where I disagree. Your entire premise that what I'm pointing out implies something else is based on a fallacy.

Frankly, you're giving people way more credit for how deep they would be thinking about the implications of their answer.

Just because you answered yes because you thought this was the case, doesn't mean everyone, or even most people would think that.

And, if you desperately want my opinion on what you're arguing... I think it's disgusting to answer yes to that question thinking that it doesn't matter because the system will protect the children. You're giving the system too much credit, and while most might, not every teacher or school official will be on the student's side.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

My kid got a tongue piercing when he was 18, and put a lot of effort into making sure I wouldn't find out. It took 3 days. I told him it was a poor choice and to take care of it so he minimized his chances of bad outcomes. When I asked him why he didn't tell me right away, he said he didn't think I'd get angry or anything, he just didn't want me to disapprove.

Sometimes kids will take a while to let you know things for reasons other than fear of reprisal, but parents in that situation can usually accept that their kids will take time to be ready.

[–] Tigbitties@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago

Religion has done more harm to children that anything that has existed on earth. That's what we shoul be protecting them from.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Canadians divided on talk of sexual orientation: bigots vs. non-bigots.

That pretty much identifies most divides on social issues.

[–] nik282000@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Poll suggest that some Canadians are racist, bigoted, climate-denying, coal-rolling anti-vaxers but it's much easier just to call them 'conservatives.' Is there someway to put an import ban on US politics?

[–] sik0fewl@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

I hate labelling people like that. I wish we could would just call them racist, bigoted, climate-denying, coal-rolling antivaxxers.

[–] snoons@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This whole gender topic is merely a distraction from bigger issues that actually matter.

[–] FunderPants@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How we treat people and their human rights actually matter.

[–] snoons@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Let me rephrase that:

This is a manufactured issue to keep people from organizing and stopping the permanent destruction of the environment that sustains life on this planet. I doubt the people that manufactured it know that though, they only know that they're still making money from unabated and unsustainable resource extraction.

To be clear, our environment is collapsing right now, no one knows how long it will take to completely collapse though. This summer has been the hottest summer on record, almost exponentially so, and it's not going to stop until we stop it. There are already bodies of water that are becoming to hot to sustain life. If the oceans, lakes and rivers die, we die along with them because the plants and animals (phytoplankton) in all the water make the vast majority of the oxygen you're breathing right now. We have to stop fucking around and get the fuck to work and stop this or everyone dies. Maybe not in our lifetime, but as it stands now, it is definitely going to happen. Again, this is just another distraction to keep people from doing that so others can keep making money off of it.

*I of course think Premier MooMoo is way out of line on this, but it is in essence a made up issue to distract, to keep eyes away from his, or his governments ostensible industry friends. A person chooses their pronouns as a way of expressing who they are, respecting that decision is common sense; however, it's easy to make that an issue with today's hyper connected aged toddler.

[–] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's easy to say when you aren't a sexual minority getting pushed around.

Yes, I would much rather be giving a shit about a zillion other issues. I would like to put this to bed and get onto other things. Unfortunately, conservatives just won't leave LGBTQ kids alone.

[–] snoons@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

Yes, exactly. You won't do anything about the issues that are much more immediate because "they" have created these other issues for you. It certainly is important that people don't have their right trampled on just because of their sexual orientation though, and the funny thing is it seems to be the same group that are protecting those that are fucking everything up environmentally. I hope votes are enough to stop it all.

[–] ram@bookwormstory.social 10 points 1 year ago

ugh 15 years of social progress regressed...

[–] willybe@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

Here is the poll report:

https://leger360.com/surveys/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-in-canada/

Rather than blaming the ignorant about these issues. I think this report shows we need to do more work too support schools and raise the level of education on these important, and life saving curriculums and services.

[–] OttoVonNoob@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

My friend is trans she, grew up with hetero church going parents, teachers who talked about the hetero families and basically had no exposure to trans ideas til her 20s. I dont think knowing about something gives full on desire on top of that you can't transition until your 18 and a individual adult...

[+] SuicideTime@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

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