Time for Europe to get our shit together in regards with the military. I can't stand the though of pulling back or surrendering territory to Russia.
Will it be hard - yes. But our quite recent ancestors went through worse in WWI and WWII and they didn't give up because it was inconvenient. Unfortunately (or fortunately, given the history) the only way to get Europeans into killing mode is a total war.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

Well, technically speaking, some of them did give up because it was convenient, but we won in the end and it only cost us the most deaths ever recorded for any conflict ever. This-this isn't helping me rn. This conversation isn't helping.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 20 points 2 days ago

GOP: "Actually, Russia bribes us more than these democracies, so we're going to join CSTO"

[+] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world -27 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I'd like European countries to actually commit 2% to defense and for the US to stop subsidizing other countries' socialism.

As it stands, NATO is a defense pact designed to counter a country that literally doesn't exist anymore and has failed consistently for the past 30 years.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 28 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't really give a flying fuck about who pays for what, but not having a defence pact and not sharing resources for the security of each of its members is going to lead to war, death, and destruction. NATO if nothing else is an effective deterrent, Russia campaigning against it before invading nonmembers along its borders is proof of that.

There is no price tag on that. This could be the end of mankind in the event of WWIII. This could be the last of our kind.

[+] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world -19 points 2 days ago (2 children)

NATO isn't sharing resources, it's literally just Europe leeching off America's military. And because of some gross paternal feelings towards the Old World, America was very happy being Europe's bitch in that regard for the past 80 years.

There is no price tag on that.

There is for Americans who have watched our military budget balloon several times over the agreed-upon 2% to pick up the slack - at the expense of our social programs.

Of course you don't give a flying fuck about where the money comes from yet

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 22 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf

USA spent 3.5% of GDP, lower percentage than Poland, on NATO or a gross number of $754,684,000,000 USD

Canada and Europe provided 430,112,000,000

So unless you can conjure 430 Billion USD out of your ass without any inflationary effect then America just lost a third of its defence budget and power. And every other member lost much more than that. Do you understand now? If it was difficult to attack or capture those members with NATO then it's going to be seen as barely a challenge without it. We're all the wounded gazelle on the Serengeti, but this situation is even worse than that because even the figurative lions will suffer during a new world war. The only people who will benefit from whats about to happen are the worst human beings imaginable.

[+] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world -6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Then why are you crying about American renegement when you have Poland and Estonia outpacing America?? What do you even need us for?

Oh yeah, it's that 754 billion USD. LOL.

So unless you can conjure 430 Billion USD out of your ass without any inflationary effect then America just lost a third of its defence budget and power.

And Europe's defense would be cut down to a third. America will do fine defending a much smaller area with a slightly smaller defense budget. Europe, I doubt it.

I think the possibility of America leaving NATO is the only thing that I can see as a good thing on the horizon. I cannot wait until Russia steamrolls you all the way to France and I never have to hear about ungrateful Europeans from behind the Great Firewall that Putin puts in place for you.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

I'm sorry to be the one to break the news to you but every NATO agreement is with the USA as an intermediary. Applications are sent to the USA and approved by the USA.

Without the USA all previous NATO agreements will become void. Until a new organization forms without them, there will be no pact holding the countries responsible to defend each other, and it will likely be difficult to get countries that weren't at immediate risk before to join the new organization given it lacks the USA's firepower as a guarantor against the potential enemies they could make.

Decades of progress put into making the alliance will be gone, and it will become everyone's problem sooner or later. The USA will become a frontline when allies start to fall.

[–] zloubida@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago

Lol, the budget of US military has nothing to do with NATO…