I wouldn’t call “Andor” stagnation.
this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
29 points (83.7% liked)
Star Trek
1358 readers
1 users here now
This is the lemmy.ml Star Trek community.
There are many other Star Trek communities around the Lemmyverse, and there is a Lemmy instance entirely dedicated to the subject (startrek.website).
Here are links to some of those other communities:
/c/DaystromInstitute@startrek.website: Serious, in-depth Star Trek discussion
/c/Risa@startrek.website: Star Trek memes and shitposts
/c/tenforward@lemmy.world: Where Every Vulcan Knows Your Name ("post all the nonsense you want")
/c/startrek@lemmygrad.ml: These are the voyages of the Starship Lenin.
/c/StarTrek@startrek.website: General Star Trek news and discussion
/c/startrek@lemmy.world: Another general-purpose community
/c/Quarks@startrek.website: Off-topic chat
/c/StarTrekOnline@startrek.website: Star Trek Online discussion, tips, and tricks
/c/GreatestGen@startrek.website: For fans of the Greatest Generation and Greatest Trek podcasts
/c/startrekmemes@lemmy.ml: Meme-ory Alpha, another meme community
/c/startrekmemes@lemmy.world: Star Trek Memes & Shitposts
/c/startrek@possumpat.io: A community for all things Star Trek.
/c/star_trek@lemmy.zip: A Star Trek community where you’re free share your opinions about all things Trek.
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
The challenge of storytelling in the Star Trek universe and the Star Wars universe are very different challenges. In Star Wars, the main story has already been told. From Episode I to Episode IX, you have the Skywalker Saga, and all other stories told on the side must be, in some way, in service of either that or to the broader events in the galaxy that bring it about. Every story in the SWEU service that main storyline, and even when they stray off to try to have their own story, they always come back to it again and again, eventually becoming part of it themselves.
Now, this isn’t a bad thing. One thing that has made this work for so long is how good the writers - especially Dave Filoni - seems to be at fleshing out the universe in which the SWEU exists. The man has a gift for worldbuilding. Not only does it take place in a civilization seemingly tens (or possibly hundreds) of thousands of years more advanced than ours, the whole civilization occupies most of the galaxy and regularly travels around it rather quickly, as opposed to how, in Star Trek, the galaxy is still a very big place, and traveling long distances like they often do in Star Wars could take years, if not decades. And it’s got a lot more characters than we see in Star Trek because there’s a lot more shows that have gone a lot more places and done a lot more things. An entire galactic rebellion didn’t just happen when some farm kid had his aunt and uncle murdered and picked up an old laser sword that some hermit gave him. and the entire Galactic Empire didn’t just go away when they lost power. There’s a lot to explore there, story-wise. And they have. That’s the problem.
It’s just too much all at once, and people get exhausted just trying to keep up. In Disney’s never-ending thirst for profits, they just kept pumping out content, and people kept gobbling it up. It’s not that it wasn’t pretty great stuff, it’s that they released so much and have told so many stories and have covered so much ground that people are kind of getting tired of it. It’s not necessarily that people are bored or that the content isn’t good, it’s that Star Wars, itself, is starting to wear thin. And there’s still plenty more story to tell, but people need a break. It’s been non-stop Star Wars content since 2001, and for the last few years, it’s been a deluge of it. It’s just too much for a lot of people, and it ruins how special Star Was is if it’s so common that’s impossible to avoid.
Star Trek can like that, too, though. If too many shows are coming out at once people will lose interest because it becomes less interesting and special, even if the quality is still high. Sometimes the quality suffers as a result, too. I think both franchises could benefit from turning down the firehose of content releases to more of a steady stream.
First off, we’ll said.
I seem to recall a time not too long ago where there was 2-3 different Trek TV series airing at once. People were getting sick of Trek at that time too. We need to learn to take smaller bites, and not gorge ourselves sick with this type of content.
Although I will say there are plenty of stories to tell in the Star Wars mythos. We just need to find some producer/studio brave enough to nail shut the Skywalker era and move on.
Personally I’d rather see the next big Star Wars series pickup a couple hundred years post-Skywalker.
I agree that there’s so much to tell in the SW mythos. and while I agree that the Skywalker story is done, I think that you’re much more likely to find someone more willing to plum the depths of The Old Republic and the tens of thousands of years of history leading up to the fall of the Republic. The Era of the High Republic, for example, already has plenty of novels to explore and adapt.
But, back to Trek, I think it’s time to pivot away from throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. They should have a good enough idea now of what audiences want, and it isn’t DIS, it’s SNW and content similar to that in tone and format. Episodic with short story arcs, character driven and mission-focused without being too superficial and action-driven. Audiences want to see nuance and emotion, but don’t want to be ruled by it and still want to see the science being worked out with teamwork, not used as dialog-filler without actually being applied in a slapdash manner without any realistic connection to what’s happening on screen. and enough with the spinning camera and constant crazy camera angles giving everyone vertigo.
Re first paragraph: while I do somewhat agree, we’ll likely never see TOR stories until Disney and EA can sort out the rights to those stories. Plus, I’d rather have TOR kept as video game lore. For no reason I can articulate.
Re second paragraph: Yup. :).
sorry to jump in here, but...
I don’t think getting rights to the novels is a problem— adapting them in-universe is what would be difficult, although that’s not been a problem when they’ve dipped their toes into the lore before. The REAL problem will be, as you’ve mentioned before 1) mustering the courage to venture away from the “core story”, and 2) convincing he audience to go along. it would be the equivalent of Trek producing ENT, and we all know how well that went— although, done better, that could have been pretty awesome and quite nearly was. (Yes, I’m still bitter about that show!)
Ya know, they’ve started in with the novels already. Not only with, it think Tales of the Jed, but also going into the new series Acolyte, they’re delving into adapting some of the later ones. I do believe they’re going to start moving that way.
I'm still getting caught up after becoming a trekkie and the binging hasn't gotten old yet and I'm on discovery.
No offense meant, because you raise a lot of good points on why Star Trek works as a setting, but I fundamentally disagree with the Star Wars take here. Historically, Star Wars has centered around the Skywalker saga for Personal (George Lucas) and Business (Disney) reasons, not creative ones.
Star Wars offers an excellent setting with a framework to discuss ethics and morality baked directly into the universe. Stories like Knights of the Old Republic have shown that you can get away from the main Saga and still tell an engaging story rooted in the universe that Saga created. Tons of old Legends content didn't tie directly into the original films and were excellent.
Andor has also shown that it's also just that bad writing is what leads to IP burnout. I couldn't finish Book of Boba Fett or Mandalorian season 3, but have watched Andor 3 times.
No offense met, because you raise a lot of good points on why Star Trek works as a setting, but I fundamentally disagree with the Star Wars take here. Historically, Star Wars has centered around the Skywalker saga for Personal (George Lucas) and Business (Disney) reasons, not creative ones.
I don’t see the point of disagreement here, although this could bear more exploring as to what, exactly, you mean.
Star Wars offers an excellent setting with a framework to discuss ethics and morality baked directly into the universe. Stories like Knights of the Old Republic have shown that you can get away from the main Saga and still tell an engaging story rooted in the universe that Saga created. Tons of old Legends content didn’t tie directly into the original films and were excellent.
yeah, sure. they just haven’t yet (not in official-can media like the shows/films), and I think that’s a huge shame. it’s certainly where they should go next and a great way to breathe new life into the franchise.
Andor has also shown that it’s also just that bad writing is what leads to IP burnout.
kinda, but I think what Andor mostly did was show that a SW could survive both a massive tonal shift and making a show marketed solely towards adults that was much more violent and contained mature themes that was beyond what children could deal with. Also, it finally addresses complex issues such as the internal machinations of the ESB, and comes off as more sci-fi than sci-fantasy. It’s not a “fun” show. It’s dark and mean. And you already know everyone’s going to die horribly. And it’s awesome because it’s made with no restraints.
Trek tried this with DIS and PIC, and it blew up in their faces— mostly because Trek isn’t that kind of universe.
My point was that Star Wars has been tied to the same characters for personal and business reasons, not inherently creative ones defined by the setting. The difference IMO is mostly down to who the creators and executives involved in the process of each IP have been, not the actual merits of the respective IP's worlds.
If Gene Roddenberry has decided that Next Generation had to be about Kirk and his crew, and then Paramount also mandated all it's other Star Trek projects to be about TOS crew, we'd be having the same discussions about "why can't Start Trek get away from the original series?" even though it has nothing to do with the setting.
My point was that Star Wars has been tied to the same characters for personal and business reasons, not inherently creative ones defined by the setting. The difference IMO is mostly down to who the creators and executives involved in the process of each IP have been, not the actual merits of the respective IP’s worlds.
oh, well, I’m sure that’s true. and I wasn’t arguing that (at least the current) creators/creatives were sticking to it for lack of imagination, just that one of the problems is that they are for whatever reason and that stepping away from it to focus on another period would greatly benefit everyone. I think we agree on this, it’s just that I was, perhaps, unclear in my criticism or what or even who, precisely, I was criticizing.
I also realize that the decision is not that of the creatives alone, but can be stifled by the stubbornness of the studios. but I don’t really think the likes of Filoni and Favraeu et al are so limited any more, having earned a lot of creative freedoms with their repeated successes. sure, there may be issues related to getting the rights to some of the stories, but I believe there’s genuine interest in developing the previous eras. I thin it was at the SW Con in March where Filoni laid out his new planned timeline, and there was Old Republic and High Republic eras noted on it that he planned to start writing stories for. So, I’m hopeful.
I don't think it's fair to say Star Wars is stagnant, it's fine the way it is. You could argue it's a shame they never made more than three Star Wars movies, just like how it sucks that there was no Star Trek content produced between the time Voyager ended and Strange New Worlds premiered, but I'm happy we have two high-quality franchises that didn't make embarrassing trash in shameless cash grabs. The only missed opportunity is that we never got a TNG film, it would have been almost impossible to screw up.
lol, yeah… like how there was only one Matrix film… just one, perfect Matrix film with no dumb sequels… lol
The Matrix
I know the post wasn't about it but unfortunately the only show really stagnating is Stargate, for years now. It's a crime how mishandled it is.
*cries in Stargate Origins*
Would really like to see the conclusion to SGU although that seems unlikely at this point... Anyway, let's hope for the best with the (hopefully) upcoming Amazon/MGM thingy.
Is there still anything upcoming though..?
My impression was the buyout was complete and they've still been silent for probably over a year now.
One of the writers on Twitter isn't very optimistic :(
I’ll allow it
Star Trek is indeed flourishing (especially Strange New Worlds, in my opinion), but I wouldn’t say Star Wars is stagnating. They just don’t happen to have anything new out right this minute. Many franchises would love to be “stagnating” with shows like The Mandalorian or Andor.
I think they’re cutting back on releases. I heard about one project getting cancelled, the one show with Jude Law and the crew of kids. But Andor and Mandolorian are amazing, although both will probably be ending soon (I know Andor only has 1 season left). Ahsoka looks like it will be amazing, and sort of bridges a couple of time periods (pre- and post-rebellion), tying heavily into Rebels. But Star Wars still seems to be cooling it a bit now.
but I agree with @whiskeypickle-- the viewer fatigue is real. There’s just SO MUCH SWEU content out there, it’s hard to keep up, and eve when you do, it’s a lot. Star Trek, by contrast, has less, and even Trek has slowed it down a little, although I’m pretty upset that they both cancelled PRO in the middle of production and pulled S01 the way they did. That’s just terrible all around.
They pulled season 1 too? That’s some bullshit.
yeah, it’s jus gone. it’s a good thing I have my trusty Plex server so I can still enjoy it. otherwise, it would be lost to the depths of my frequently-stoned memory! lmao
Star Wars is doing much better in the arena of video games though.
I think Star Trek games could be much better if they followed SW’s example and tried to focus on single character narratives rather than ones which focus on the flying a ship or managing the entire crew at once, which makes it difficult for the player to really immerse themselves into the game’s story an plot while investing themselves into the game in a personal way.
Trek Ames could even switch between characters throughout the game and play different roles during different levels, but, often, Trek games focus a lot less on the characters and don’t feel like the immersive experience that SW games do. I don’t just want to go on a Trek adventure, I want to be the main character in the adventure, interacting with other characters in real time, running around, etc.
Meh. To me they are in the same boat. The trick now is to make massive crap and then follow it up with something halfway decent so your fanbase can be like wow. Much better. Its like the great feeling you get when you stop being tortured.