this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2024
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Rough Roman Memes

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A place to meme about the glorious ROMAN EMPIRE (and Roman Republic, and Roman Kingdom)! Byzantines tolerated! The HRE is not.

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[–] lennivelkant@discuss.tchncs.de 31 points 2 days ago (12 children)

Fun fact: Part of the Roman Empire's strength was its tolerance and integration of other cultures instead of trying to impose their own. Their various Italian subjects were "allies" in name and bound by pacts of mutual assistance, but otherwise largely left to govern themselves as long as they paid their tithes.

The prospect of becoming Roman Citizens in exchange for military service enticed them to serve as auxiliary units. These units were also tightly integrated with the Roman troops, often leading to a gradual blending of cultures, a layering of identities rather than exclusively choosing them.

Sure, this wasn't some altruistic act of goodwill so much as political strategy to maximise their power, but it worked. Part of the fall was the fracturing of loyalties because later Emperors abandoned that policy and it's just not as appealing to send your sons off to war for an empire that will only ever treat you as second class subjects.

Of course, the whole thing is more complicated than I could convey in a single comment, but check out this ancient historian's blog series on "Who were the Romans?" and "Decline and Fall?".

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago (11 children)

In support of your point, here's a nice little quote from Emperor Claudius, who was also a scholar and a historian:

What was the ruin of Sparta and Athens, but this, that mighty as they were in war, they spurned from them as aliens those whom they had conquered? Our founder Romulus, on the other hand, was so wise that he fought as enemies and then hailed as fellow-citizens several nations on the very same day. Strangers have reigned over us. That freedmen’s sons should be intrusted with public offices is not, as many wrongly think, a sudden innovation, but was a common practice in the old commonwealth. But, it will be said, we have fought with the Senones. I suppose then that the Volsci and Aequi never stood in array against us. Our city was taken by the Gauls. Well, we also gave hostages to the Etruscans, and passed under the yoke of the Samnites. On the whole, if you review all our wars, never has one been finished in a shorter time than that with the Gauls. Thenceforth they have preserved an unbroken and loyal peace. United as they now are with us by manners, education, and intermarriage, let them bring us their gold and their wealth rather than enjoy it in isolation. Everything, Senators, which we now hold to be of the highest antiquity, was once new. Plebeian magistrates came after patrician; Latin magistrates after plebeian; magistrates of other Italian peoples after Latin. This practice too will establish itself, and what we are this day justifying by precedents, will be itself a precedent.

I have a fantastic book on the subject, Imperial Ideology and Provincial Loyalty in the Roman Empire, highly recommend.

[–] AnarchistArtificer 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Is the book you recommend accessible to non-historians?

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

After losing the book in an apartment the size of a thimble and, after some effort, re-finding it in this hellhole, I managed to give it a look-over! It's more accessible than I remember, even. Very friendly, even if your only background is reading a beginner's guide to Roman history or the like. Detailed, yes, but with explanations of any context that would be unfamiliar to your average layman.

[–] AnarchistArtificer 2 points 1 day ago

Awesome, that sounds like I'd enjoy checking it out (and not just because if I didn't, I'd feel bad about the effort you put into finding it)

Tangentially related: It's unfortunate and possibly ironic that the people who would most benefit from learning some history are often ill-equipped with the skills needed to study history. My late best friend was a historian, and as a scientist, something I cherished in our friendship was the insight into the historian's perspective. It felt like a jarringly different way of viewing the world, but that's why it felt useful. He'd probably feel proud (and a little smug) to see that my interest in history has lasted even though he wasn't here to feed it.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

I was going to say yes, but let me find it so I can reread a chapter or two and be sure. It's not for beginners, but if you're looking into niches like the question of ideology and regional loyalty, it reasonably presumes that you know what the Roman Empire is and its basic aspects.

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