this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
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So, to get this out of the way, I'm a cisgender white man from a well-off family in a fairly affluent town. I'm making this post because I want to hear perspectives from those who are different from and likely significantly more knowledgeable than me. (Literally as I was writing this post, I came to the epiphany that I should probably more properly educate myself on socialism.)

TL;DR: What is your opinion on giving money to houseless people you see IRL?

I like to consider myself socialist/progressive in thought---in favor of wealth redistribution via various methods, live and let live, freedom for everyone as long as you're not materially harming anyone, etc.---but I grew up in a fairly conservative household (more socially than fiscally, but even then). Being in a rich area, I never really saw houseless people around unless I went to one of the nearby cities, and the general policy was keep walking and don't look. My parents definitely raised me to be kind and generous, but more in a detached "give to charity" way.

Rather recently, I've really embraced this idea of being socialist, and I've become very free with giving my money in particular (though I'm aware I could do more, like join a DSA branch or somethin'). I love giving to non-profit organizations when I can, I support creators I like on Patreon. I've even started giving to people on Fedi who I've seen need money for whatever reason. Spread the wealth, right?

Now, things have changed where I live, and even in my rich lil burb, you can usually find at least one refugee or houseless person when you go out to a grocery store or something. I just saw a guy who was standing outside a grocery store asking for spare change, and it was a rare occasion that I actually had cash in my wallet. On my way out, I gave it to him. Simple.

But I feel weird about it. I have all these ideas in my head from White America saying that they'll just buy alcohol or drugs with it or that they're scamming me or anything else like that. Then on the other hand, I think that it's just as likely (if not more) that they're going to spend it on things they actually need to live and how it's not my job to police how they use their money. And then on the third hand, I think that maybe it would be better to donate money to organizations that help out houseless people than just giving money to random people. Then on the fourth hand---you get the idea.

For those of you who actually read the whole post and didn't stop at the TL;DR, I have a few questions:

  1. Why in God's name did you actually read this whole thing?
  2. Are these feelings normal or am I just a self-centered prick?
  3. What are your opinions on giving money to houseless people you just randomly meet?
  4. As a bonus question for the socialists out there: Any recs on socialism learning resources for someone who likes reading, but doesn't like reading books?

For those of you who made it all the way to the end, thank you for reading my neurotic ramblings.


EDIT: I didn't really expect this to blow up... but thank you all so much for your perspectives on everything. It was exactly what I was hoping for and exactly what I didn't think I was going to get. I tried to read everything and I feel simultaneously less conflicted, but definitely more... not confused, but maybe full of ideas?

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[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago
  1. Why in God’s name did you actually read this whole thing?

I don't know

  1. Are these feelings normal or am I just a self-centered prick?

I think a lot of people hold these worries and prejudices so I'd say it's normal.

  1. What are your opinions on giving money to houseless people you just randomly meet?

I'm usually busy and don't have cash on me so I don't give money. What my grandpa used to do is that if someone asked money for food, he'd go buy the food with the person. This way, he'd be more likely to 'give' the money in an appropriate amount and he'd make sure that this person would not harm themselves with the money. It's something I've always been proud of from him.

[–] Nougat@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My brother-in-law has worked in homeless charity for a long time, not just on the front lines but as executive director, too. He told me that handing cash directly to someone on the street is something he never does, unless he knows that person personally from interacting with them at a shelter or in relation to some other support program. Folks can get so much more in terms of assistance and services if they're connected to a program. The programs run more efficiently, so your donations to a homeless charity will provide much more than a donation to an individual person. Finally, they want people to participate in these programs, so they can get people the support they need, not just in terms of housing and food, but mental health services, job training, all sorts of stuff.

You're right: make your donations to a charity of your choice, and go do some volunteer time, too.

[–] hoyland@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This argument doesn't make much sense and is honestly weirdly condescending to unhoused people. Donating money to an organization is almost surely the most efficient way to use that money, but it doesn't follow that you shouldn't give money to individuals. Unless you are really truly going to go home and send that $5 you didn't give to a person to an organization immediately, that's $5 that's not helping anyone.

There's definitely an argument that organized giving should be directed to organizations (though folks deep into mutual aid would question whether something organized enough to have executives is the right place, but that's more a philosophical question, I think), but when I give the singles in my wallet to someone of the subway or whatever, that's not organized giving.

[–] Nougat@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

I neglected to include this: "not enough money to make it independently" in someone's pocket can delay them getting to a program that would offer a great deal more services, and ones which would put them more firmly on the path towards independence. Whether it's a few dollars given by an indivudual, or a wide range of services given by an organization, they're still mainly dependent on charity. It's often the services a program provides that are a necessary part of moving towards independence, and $5 in the pocket doesn't get those services.

In order for any organization to accomplish large goals most efficiently, it will need leadership.

Finally, you'll note that I didn't say don't give to individuals. I said that your charity will do more when it is given to the right organization. I am aware that there are plenty of "charity" organizations that are, shall we say, less charitable than others. Yes, it will require some effort on the part of the person giving to vet charities to their satisfaction. Going to do volunteer work with charitable organizations can be part (but not all) of that vetting. It is always the choice of the individual giver as to where their donations go: this charity, that person, that charity, this person.

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[–] chloyster@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also just to call back to your comment on the dsa, it got me thinking.

I do think a great thing you can do is volunteer your time or be a proponent of things that can actually be a solution to the systemic issues that lead to large amounts of unhoused people. Social housing is a thing that's starting to be discussed in many places across the US, and I am very close with someone who was a key part of getting the initiative in Seattle passed. Her involvement in that has definitely made me look to participate in similar stuff where I live

[–] miracleorange@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

I live in a pretty bougie place, and I live far enough away from any sizable city that it's easy to rationalize not joining any sort of initiative or organization. That and the issue of my mental disabilities and general temperament getting in the way. That said, I'm getting to the point where it's getting harder and harder to justify not doing something.

[–] Rentlar@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

Give if you feel like it. Don't feel bad you can't or don't. Acts of charity might not mean much for the world, but at the same time it could mean the world to someone.

Someone once popped in a Domino's pizza when I was picking an order up, he was trying to count out change for a soda, and also wasn't wearing shoes. I bought it for him and also gave a spare mask I had (it was covid time and workers felt a little uneasy with this person inside).

The sweet little smile he had warmed my heart (something worth more than $5), the $5 itself meant more to him than me.

Doesn't matter too much if half the time it gets used on smokes or drinks... if it can help someone out genuinely trying to escape a struggle 1 every 10 times I'm happy.

[–] Hillock@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The feelings are very normal. And there is no good answer or solution other than voting for politicians who would take that issue seriously and make actual change. But they are rare to find.

My personal approach is, I stopped giving to random people asking for money. There are some long-term homeless people in my area that I recognize and I will give them some change occasionally. I don't do it because I think it will change their situation or even help them but just because they deserve some kind of "happiness". And I don't care if they find happiness by buying alcohol, cigarettes, any other kind of drugs, food, or anything else.

With random people asking for money, there are just too many people trying to take advantage of the generosity of others. And since I am aware that my contribution wouldn't help someone who is in actual need anyhow, I'd rather not give it to someone who is trying to take advantage of me.

Donating to charities is usually the better approach if you want to help others. Just put in some effort into researching the charity before donating as some of them are also a scam but in general, even if they only use 70-90% of my donation to actually help others, it goes a longer way than giving that money to an individual.

[–] dinodrinkstea@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

There's much more you can do than voting, including giving people money directly. That helps, not waiting for the suits to toss a few pennies down to social issues like housing, beacuse they don't really give a shit about any of us. Waiting around for something to be solved doesn't work: we all gotta work toward it

[–] miracleorange@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I always look at Charity Navigator and similar websites before I give. I actually do give to a few local charities that deal with houselessness in specific populations, among other things, and I'm very confident that my money is going to good use.

With random people asking for money, there are just too many people trying to take advantage of the generosity of others. And since I am aware that my contribution wouldn’t help someone who is in actual need anyhow, I’d rather not give it to someone who is trying to take advantage of me.

I live in a town where you generally don't see too many houseless people (I may even have exaggerated a bit in the original post), so there's not really that worry of "being taken advantage of" in the sense that even if I gave each person I see 10 bucks, I'm not even close to being in danger of running out of money (I'm also a bit of a hermit). I definitely do it less out of a "this is going to change this person's life" mindset and more out of a "this is going to make this person's day a little better" mindset, though.

[–] Hillock@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not about being out some bucks but more about being lied to. In many European cities, it's well known that organized crime is involved in begging. And I don't want to support them. Even if the people who actually do the begging are sometimes forced to do it. Then there are some people who just made a profession out of begging. Which I personally also don't like. And that's why I don't give it to random people I have never seen before, especially when they are in tourist areas.

[–] OpenStars@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

It's very dangerous in some places to pull out a wallet... literally life-threatening even. And there are ways to help people other than giving those resources to beggars, like tip large amounts to workers to help keep them off the streets in the first place, and to reward work rather than giving up. So yeah, helping people should be dependent on context, I totally agree.

[–] Snugglebug@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I feel like any response I provide would already be covered by the reply from @Thorned_Rose@kbin.social so I will just suggest that if you have free time you might want to consider volunteering for a local organization that does outreach to houseless people (preferably one that aligns with principles such as Housing First). I do have some recommendations for alternatives to reading books though:

(All YouTube links proxies through a common Invidious instance)

Wikipedia articles. While this is often ridiculed, they often provide a great starting point for knowledge. Then, if there's a claim you're skeptical of or that is especially interesting to you, follow the citation provided. If it's a paywalled article, sci-hub (not a legal endorsement, for educational purposes only) should get around it, and for books that you might want to read a section on that get paywalled the same applies to libgen (same disclaimer too).

Podcasts. This is one you have to be careful with. A lot of podcasts can sound authoritative on a subject while completely misrepresenting it (see Joe Rogan, any IDW-adjacent podcast, etc.) So check sources vigilantly. I personally recommend The Iron Dice: a history podcast currently going over the fall of Weimar Germany. [Also check out the creator's YouTube channel Three Arrows.

YouTube Channels. The same warning given to podcasts applies to these as well. Some personal endorsements:

  • Jonas Čeika - CCK Philosophy. Heavy emphasis on philosophy and applying it to history and politics.
  • Anark. Communicates anarchist theory providing historical examples and practical applications.
  • Not Just Bikes. Brief explorations into urban planning and the importance of diversifying our available modes of transportation.
  • Eco Gecko. Another channel largely focused on urban planning, but from a more theoretical and heavily research-backed standpoint.
[–] arefx@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

I don't simply because the homeless in my area are all active users and they spend the money on heroin. Instead I donate to outreach programs when I can.

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Wether you support private ownership or state ownership of the means of production, social programs that support citizens are just sound public/economic policy. You know the saying, ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. There is mountains of evidence that the same goes for social programs versus the opportunity/effect costs that come with crime, homelessness, lack of education, sickness, & other ills. Even if you don't believe in any of that, you need only look at the correlation between HDI and GDP per Capita to see the effect for yourself. Taxes (that fund social programs) are investments that pay dividends.

Obviously, corruption, crime and inefficiency at scale eat away at these dividends. But tax evasion is not something society should aspire to. It's just crime, and one that ultimately makes your preferred economic system look and perform worse, regardless of the flavour.

Here's a more primitive example: if you are really rich and you live next to some slums, you can spend massive amounts of money on walls, insurance premiums, vandalism cleanup, and armed guards and live in perpetual paranoia that your neighbours, or worse, your armed guards will rob you. Or, you can put all that same money into affordable living conditions for your neighbours. It'll actually cost the same or less, but now you get a pretty view, and more friends to invite over to parties.

So yeah, income, wealth redistribution, taxes & social programs, always a net benefit to everyone.

[–] ndondo@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think we have a responsibility to do what we can. To me that especially means treating the homeless with dignity and respect.

If i have 5$ I'm going to spend it on irresponsible things anyways. Why not give it to somebody else. Sure they might spend it on drugs or something you don't approve of. But they might not. Why not give them the dignity to choose for themselves.

[–] abhibeckert@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The last person who asked me for "just a dollar to buy a bus ticket" responded to "sorry i don't carry cash" by offering me $50 and asking me to buy a bottle of spirits, said I could keep the change.

Turns out he's banned from the local stores for causing a scene after drinking an entire bottle in one go.

Honestly, I just don't trust the homeless people in my neighborhood. I'd love to help them out, but they have to earn my trust first and there's only so much time I can dedicate to that and honestly I beleive my time/money are better spent as part of a larger effort by government and/or charrities. Random acts of kindness are far less effective than a carefully considered larger joint effort.

[–] solidstate@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

I used to give a bit when asked, even when directly asked for "some change for a beer". That was about ten years ago when I was a student and didn't have a lot of money myself.

I have always considered myself lucky having been born into circumstances that allowed me to become financially well-off and healthy, even though my parent aren't wealthy or anything like that.

From this point of view, I always thought giving a little bit away, which I won't even feel, to someone less fortunate than myself, was very reasonable.

And it is absolutely no business of mine to care what someone does with the money I give them. If I gave someone money and expected them to spend it in a certain way, that would be incredibly patronizing. Who am I to judge? If I lived on the street, I would probably try to make my days a bit lighter with a beer or two or three.

Today, it is different. While I earn good money now, I give less, and it is often on my mind why. I like to believe that it is the external circumstances that changed, though. First of all, the sheer quantity of people actively asking me for money, mostly when I am waiting for a train, would mean a more considerable sum of money than I was used to. Secondly, often the people asking are obviously users. For instance, there is a very active open crack scene where I live. This is different from the beer or two, which I to this day never had a problem supporting. It is often not even homeless people but rather people in dire need to support their opiate addiction.

This has become so obvious that I mostly opt out of giving money. Sometimes my gut tells me that this is one of the "good old beggars" or they just cone across as sincere and I give.

To conclude: opiates are hell and I want the good old times back when I did not feel conflicted when supporting less fortunate fellow citizens with a little change.

[–] OpenStars@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

B/c you care.

Entirely normal.

Meh.

There are fantastic videos, like YouTube has a series on Crash Course World History that I highly recommend. Before anything, start with literally the first one - and maybe go through them all rather than jump straight to socialism, bc it helps to understand context.

I advise to think of the whole affair like a "process", rather than an end goal unto itself. You might literally be doing them harm even, as in you give them cash, they buy booze, then freeze to death after drinking themselves into a stupor. Then again, even if they buy drink/drugs, that's their choice while what you offered was a kindness. And round and round the logic chain goes. Go with your gut, and don't worry too much - you literally are not in control of the outcome, only your own self. Also, I tend to buy food. I'm not helping, most likely, but it's what I do. For some, literally the best thing you could do would be to offer a job? Yard work or whatever. But many are not capable of that. I even took a pay cut and significant QoL cut trying to enter a job where I could help people more directly, and found out the hard way that you can't fix people, even when they ostensibly are asking for exactly that (a lesson I keep having to relearn constantly). Anyway, your own journey will look very different than mine, but that's why I say it's a "process": you need to go through it, each step of the way, so don't worry that you haven't "arrived" yet at a perfect understanding - that's literally impossible. If you want to offer food, or money, or nothing - all of that is your choice, and so long as your actions are motivated by true compassion then I think that's freaking awesome. Do what you can do - it really changes you, if you don't - and learn not to worry about what you can't control (somehow? I dunno how, I haven't done that myself yet!).

[–] furrowsofar@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

If you do not want people hanging around and begging, do not give money directly. However have well funded social services and charities. I feel this way because I lived through a town that got over run with beggers and I am not exagerating. They would even take the train in for the day from the city. Town hired some people to talk to anyone giving them money and ask them to stop. A month later they were gone. People do what works including begging.

[–] not_amm@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

In México, some people will opt to give them food, clothes or even cans (so they can sell). There's homeless people who collect aluminum cans, PET, cardboard and some people will give them money too. I think here most people see when they're trying to work.

I'm used to giving money in general, or whatever I can, but you can see when they'll spend it in drugs or alcohol, even then I sometimes give them money, but I prefer not to since here buying or even searching for drugs can put your life at risk. Also, most alcoholics violent other people when drunk and that's a no no for me.

Not gonna lie, I'm biased when giving money because where I live, they have their reputation, most people knows one or two and you can be sure they use the money to buy food or similar, but others have even trashed what they get or drop food because they intended to get money, not other kinds of help. Still, I can see why most people doesn't care and just gives money, I'd prefer to buy them things but it's not on my possibilities rn.

[–] Chrisosaur@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago

I try to keep this approach in mind: the bad actions of a few should not prevent us from doing good by a lot of people. Don’t deprive 9 people of food money you could give them because the 10th might use it on drugs.

I can’t find a source right now, but I believe that begging also lies near the end of the poverty cycle. If someone has resorted to that, it’s likely that they have no other options for income.

[–] Dadifer@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

My experiences have been where I've been eating outside at a restaurant, and someone asks me for money. I tell them to order anything off the menu, and I'll pay. Every single one has turned me down. This has been at least 3 times in Orlando. I have also spent some time in the poorer parts of town, and I work in a hospital where many come. Even having gotten to know some homeless people and respecting them does not make me more inclined to give money to strangers.

[–] KerooSeta@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Man, I've thought these exact thoughts so often.

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