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cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/1006130
This is an automated archive made by the Lemmit Bot.
The original was posted on /r/aboringdystopia by /u/Last_Salad_5080 on 2023-10-03 14:21:04.
Ironic that there's a grammatical error in the headline... 6th-grade levels, surely
77% of Americans write below 9th grade-levels, and hyphens are taught as an elective.
It's really important for folks to understand what is being talked about here, because I run into folks even here that are like "that's a wall of text, I'm not reading that". And that's kind of the behavior that's being talked about. Like, if you find yourself in "read the headline, not the story" you might be in this group they are talking about in this article that is linked. And do not let me come off high and mighty here, I absolutely have issues with this some times because I get all kinds of caught up with life and do not have enough time to maintain my reading habits. It is a complex issue on why there is this deterioration of reading skills. And I will likely say something to the effect of "Internet BAD!" but do know it is more than just that, it is just that is the easiest go-to for a "short" comment.
So that said. Nice little sample question one would see on a test that would test this is:
In Lions of Little Rock, two girls form a dangerous and clandestine friendship, that is challenged by racial segregation. Name, in chronological order, the multiple episodes of racist threats and violence and how they increased the tension of the relationship between the two girls.
It's not a question of "Can you read the book?" It is a question of, "Did you extract information from the book? Can you connect the dots asked in the question based on the information that you read?" Lots of people who identify themselves as literate have a lot of difficulty doing these kinds of things. So we have to understand that, this is not testing if a kid can read the word "onomatopoeia", it is testing if a person can extract useful information from written words.
All of that is different from the "eighth grade reading level" where you are typically asked things like "extrapolate what you think the underlying theme the author is trying to present." Sixth grade reading is mostly being able to put things back in the order that you read them, picking out the descriptive terms that were in the text, and identifying what the entire point was for this particular piece of work, among other things. One does not have to really get creative here, sixth grade reading is just "in slightly finer detail" being able to regurgitate what was just read. Now to get kids ready for higher reading, there is usually questions about "do you think this person at this point was feeling happy?" That kind of stuff that relies of extrapolating meaning which is usually above the "sixth grade level reading".
And it is indeed shocking how many people cannot do this. But in order to be shocked, I think people need to understand what is being tested here. A lot of social media does indeed condition folks to allow this level of reading to atrophy. The number of people who toss around TL;DR is really high and some of that is because it does not interest them. That of course is fine, but some of it is because 50% of the way through their brain is tired of reading text. AND THAT, is problematic. And really I can only touch on so much of the issue in this comment without it feeling like it is going on forever.
There are all kinds of assessment tests online that folks can review and see exactly the kind of questions that are being asked. The whence and wherefores on this matter and the causes for it happening are indeed complex and obviously I cannot cover them all here. But one big one, in my opinion, is education and its intersection with technology. Technology does indeed make lots of things easier for us, but some of those things that technology unburdens us from we should probably reexamine that relationship. Perhaps we need better education with technology or maybe we need less technology with that education, they both have pros and cons to them. There are not easy answers in this for the kind of background American education presents, which that is also an addressable matter in all of this.
It's not a question of "Can you read the book?" It is a question of, "Did you extract information from the book? Can you connect the dots asked in the question based on the information that you read?" Lots of people who identify themselves as literate have a lot of difficulty doing these kinds of things.
I'm really sorry if this comes across as a TL;DR, but there's a name for that. I'm positive you already know, but for the benefit of those interested, it's called "functional illiteracy." And it's wild, still blows my mind to this day. Like, if you're functionally illiterate, that doesn't mean you don't know how to read...it means you can read but can't understand language written beyond the basic level. There are a lot of variables involved and I'm oversimplying a lot, but that's it in a nutshell. It's fucking terrifying, to be honest, especially because it's so widespread.
Read to your kids, folks! And talk to them about it afterwards!
You’ve indirectly highlighted the biggest issue I have with referring to literacy as “x-grade reading levels”. Literacy skills stack on top of each other and, sometimes, in slightly different orders. Calling them by a grade level makes people associate these skills with certain educational levels in school when, in reality, you only learn these skills from repetition and growth. I wish there were (and maybe there are and I’m just not familiar with them) clearer distinctions for these types of skills that meant more than “x-grade” which is practically meaningless to most people and harmful for those struggling with reading and comprehension.
The amount of people on this very site who cannot parse comments they have an emotional reaction to is staggering.
Lots of people are going to laugh at this and not realize it is describing them.
wall of text
I'd just like to note for the record that your post wasn't a wall of text. Not only does it have paragraphs, it is also well-structured in its information delivery and you use connectives well, constantly answering "why am I reading this sentence (or subordinate clause)" in the first couple of words. This is not only easy to do (if you're used to it), it also takes enormous load off the reader by not having them divine erm "train of thought context", and actually follows natural speech patterns. But it does require that your thoughts are organised, that you can write the whole thing in one go, or you will have to go back and massage everything down to size. Which brings me to
TL;DR
"I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead".
Or, differently put: Writing skills are actually just as if not even more atrocious across the board. Another reason for tl;drs are people who are paid by word count.
Read to your kids. Use big words around them.
Yeah, say things like “Oh how droll, your lexicon and command of the English language is quite lamentable. Perchance your parents taught you little and never thought to embiggen your vernacular?”
Also lmao iPhones don’t recognize that embiggen is an actual dictionary word 😂
As a former child this is nothing new to me. I remember how much I hated when the teacher had people read things out loud in English class. Hell honestly any class. The amount of people who read like every. Word. Had. A. Period. And the people who would read any word longer than 3 syllables like it was hy-phe-na-ted. It was fucking torture.
20 minutes to read one single page.
Yeah, this was torture in grade school. I figured it would get better in middle school.
Then it was torture in middle school and I thought it would get better in high school.
Then it was STILL torture in high school and I thought it would surely, surely get better in college.
Then I got to college and there were still mofos reading. like. this.
I am an engineer who oversees a team. Most of them can't write more than a coherent sentence. Code and analyze data, sure, but put together a coherent paragraph? Not really.
There's a weird ongoing thing in the programming world where about half of coders think code should be well-commented and the other half not only think that code shouldn't contain comments but also think that comments are an indicator of professional incompetence (aka a "code smell"). I've long noticed that the anti-commenting crowd are also the ones that can't write very well.
I was shy-ish and didn't participate much, but I would often volunteer to read aloud. It was easier for everyone that way, since one of the few things I was exceptional at was reading
I also couldn't stand reading along with someone who couldn't. It was too painful
As much as I'd love to jump on the "stupid Americans" bandwagon, this seems to be a big problem not only in America. After the reddit exodus and before I had a good setup for lemmy, I used Facebook for a short period. Most of my stuff there is from US, UK and Norway, and the number of people in the comments who can barely put together a coherent sentance is astonishing. Far below 6th grade level by any standard.
A sentance? I wanna believe you did that on purpose.
It looks like there's at least some bias as they only counted English literacy.
This is basically a map of how many Mexican immigrants each state has. I agree the English bias is not great because not speaking English doesn't make you dumb.
It would be interesting to see the same data, restricted to participants whose first language is English.
I want to look at the eyes of a person who set a white colour on the scale to 12% value.
Maybe if we actually paid teachers and gave funding to education this wouldn't be a problem. Education in the US is god awful.
And yet "Terms Of Service" are supposed to be fair. When they're written at a college level.
And many adults choose not to read. It is almost as if they are connected
This is the reason the GOP exists as it does. It is the fucking idiots party.
Here's an article with more details about the study: https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy#:~:text=by%20EMILY%20SCHMIDT%20%7C%20March%2016%2C%202022&text=This%20means%20more%20than%20half,of%20a%20sixth%2Dgrade%20level.
Dr. Iris Feinberg, associate director of the Adult Literacy Research Center at Georgia State University, points to under-served communities with "print deserts," poorly funded schools, and little internet access as being the places where the people with poor reading skills live. She also called it an inter-generational cycle of low literacy, so it's not just a recent problem with people not wanting to read.
Yup. And the map is pretty much what you'd guess, Mississippi is #1. That is, #1 for worst literacy rate in the nation. https://www.libraryjournal.com/story/How-Serious-Is-Americas-Literacy-Problem
American's have been going down the dumbass road for a long time. And you rarely meet someone who is well rounded like you meet in Europe. Not to say there aren't dumbasses in Europe. There are many. But Americans don't even seem to try. Not anymore.
I'm American and have lived in Europe for 15 years. I assure you there is every level of educated/not educated (crystalized intelligence) and every level of very bright and pretty slow (fluid intelligence) over here, just as there is in every country in the world.Being educated and being intelligent are not the same thing.
Europe is not one place either, take a random Dane and a random person from Italy or Portugal or Croatia or Scotland and put them side by side and tell me thats one culture, ya know?
To your point, though, I will say that the quality of the foundational education in the US does pale pretty quickly when compared to the majority of public education systems that I'd be aware of here. I've been pretty embarassed about how limited my knowledge of geography and history has been at times while talking to some of my Italian, Irish and German friends.
I am friends with a primary (elementary) school teacher (teaching outside of Hamburg) and she expressed that she's seeing a rapid decline in the students' interest, ework ethic and thus their proficiency in the past few years. She's genuinely alarmed. We might start seeing articles like this about mainland Europe in a few years.
I wonder that the standard used for 6th-grade reading level is. I know that the 6th grade reading level at the beginning of the century is higher than the 6th grade reading level now.
I remember being extremely disappointed when I was in 6th grade and they had arbitrarily moved a lot of books up a reading level. There were a few in particular that I was looking forward to reading while in 5th grade that were at a 6th grade level. Then in 6th grade, I grabbed one of those books to check out but was told that I could t read it because it was now considered 7th grade and that I had to choose from the 6th grade level (which was largely the previous year's 5th grade level).
This is infuriating. No one should be denied borrowing a book because they're not at their "grade level". That's the kind of shit that contributes to people losing interest in reading from a young age.
I didn't have a single teacher or librarian who would discourage a kid from reading a book, unless a 6th grader tried checking out a clearly adult intended book like a harlequin novel or something.
Lol as long as its not porn, we could rent any book
Never heard about age limitation
It wasn't age locked per se. If you were in Honors English, they assumed you were reading at a higher level and could check out books one grade level higher than you and if you were in on-level English you were not allowed to read above "grade level".
I can understand keeping a 6th grader from checking out a bunch of 1st grade level books, but discouraging kids from pushing themselves was weird
pointedly doesn't look at the numerous Lemmings he's seen complain that relatively simple statements are grammatically confusing
I’ve absolutely had someone blow a gasket over asking for clarification when they wrote a few sentences where it was unclear from their statement whether they were progressive or a white power lunatic. I could have assumed but my level of certainty was hovering in the mid-50% range. Sometimes the author is an idiot and the questioner is justified. EDIT: from what I could figure out, the gasket blower has a habit of assuming you know their post history rather than letting each comment stand on its own. Which is not very smart.
This is such a huge percentage that it has to be incorrect, right? Over half of American adults can't really read? Or am I just vastly underestimating a '6th grade level'.